Best tonematch setting for cello, questions regarding sound

Hello All,

I perform in a Celtic/Folk acoustic duo with my wife. Two vocals, cello, guitars, occasional Irish drum. We use a L1 model II with one B1 (occasionally two), which we feed using two T1s. One T1 is plugged into the analog input at the base, and the other uses the dedicated connection. Guitars (with piezo pickups), and vocals (1 Shure SM 58, 1 Shure SM58beta) tend to go directly into the board and use modest reverb settings. The cello uses a Realist bridge pickup, and is either direct as above, or goes through a line 6 M13 effects pedal for reverb, chorus, delay, and other nonsense. The current cello pickup is less than 3 months old.

We perform in a variety of venues from church services, senior facilities, pubs, cocktail hours, private parties, etc.

Lately, my wife has complained that my cello doesn't carry into the room as well as the rest of the instruments do, especially in loud rooms. When I play, the sound from the stage is full (sometimes TOO loud). I really can't tell how far the cello carries from my seat. I'm not happy with the sound. It's TOO bassy, sometimes brittle sounding. The line6 is meant to help smooth out the sound, but it doesn't seem to be working for that intent.

I admit to being relatively clueless to the settings on the T1. At the gig, in the heat of battle, I tend to make fairly broad sweeping adjustments to EQ, etc. to squash a particular problem.  Rarely do these changes actually improve things.

Here is a list of questions/issues I'm hoping to have addressed.

1. Is there a good tonematch preset recommended for the cello? I've tried a few Bass Presets which boost the LF more than I like. I currently have it on a flat utility setting, I probably have some LF cuts, but that changes frequently depending on need.

2. Is there a way to get a high pass filter from any of the EQs? I get a fair bit of LF noise from fingers and the general resonance of the instrument that is really distracting. If I'm too close to the L1, it gets worse. It's not really feedback, but it might be.

3. I believe the channel gain is set correctly (green lights, rare blinks of red), but at certain point, no matter how far we turn the channel volume up, it doesn't change the perceived volume.

I think that's a start to my cello issues.

We've had the system for probably four years now, and love it. We've been able to push it well beyond its advertised abilities with great success. Within the last two weeks we purchased two compacts for smaller events and there is still a lot to learn to make them work the way we'd like. Perhaps those question are better left to another thread.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Dave

Hi Dave,

Nice to see you again. It's been awhile. Thanks for all the great background information.

KindredDuo posted:

Hello All,

I perform in a Celtic/Folk acoustic duo with my wife. Two vocals, cello, guitars, occasional Irish drum. We use a L1 model II with one B1 (occasionally two), which we feed using two T1s. One T1 is plugged into the analog input at the base, and the other uses the dedicated connection. Guitars (with piezo pickups), and vocals (1 Shure SM 58, 1 Shure SM58beta) tend to go directly into the board and use modest reverb settings. The cello uses a Realist bridge pickup, and is either direct as above, or goes through a line 6 M13 effects pedal for reverb, chorus, delay, and other nonsense. The current cello pickup is less than 3 months old.

We perform in a variety of venues from church services, senior facilities, pubs, cocktail hours, private parties, etc.

Lately, my wife has complained that my cello doesn't carry into the room as well as the rest of the instruments do, especially in loud rooms. When I play, the sound from the stage is full (sometimes TOO loud). I really can't tell how far the cello carries from my seat.

Do you have any kind of recording/playback device? If so, take a line out from the T1® Channel PreAmp Output to the recording device. Note: This is a mono output. If you use a cable with a splitter, connect only one side to the recorder.

For testing purposes, play the recording back through the T1® (same channel as you used for the Cello, with the same settings). This should give you a realistic idea of how the Cello sounds while you and your wife can walk around the room and listen.

Another approach is to use the recording device placed at a typical listening position in the room. Record through a microphone from that position. Listen to the recording.

I'm not happy with the sound. It's TOO bassy, sometimes brittle sounding. The line6 is meant to help smooth out the sound, but it doesn't seem to be working for that intent.

I would remove the Line 6 M13 from the signal chain. Get the best possible sound without it. Then if you feel that you need more tools to shape the sound, add the Line 6 M13 to the signal chain and work from there.

In case you are wondering, I dug around and found that the input impedance on the Line6 M13 is 1 megohm so that shouldn't be an issue with the brittle sound.

I admit to being relatively clueless to the settings on the T1. At the gig, in the heat of battle, I tend to make fairly broad sweeping adjustments to EQ, etc. to squash a particular problem.  Rarely do these changes actually improve things.

Try to get into a gig-sized space and run at full performance volume to do your testing and tweaking. Find your best sound, save it as a T1® Scene, and then you should only need to do minor adjustments at a gig.

Here is a list of questions/issues I'm hoping to have addressed.

1. Is there a good tonematch preset recommended for the cello? I've tried a few Bass Presets which boost the LF more than I like. I currently have it on a flat utility setting, I probably have some LF cuts, but that changes frequently depending on need.

The Cello goes down to about 65 Hz or C2. That's only 15 Hz (two notes lower than a guitar). Take a tour through the Acoustic Guitar presets.

2. Is there a way to get a high pass filter from any of the EQs? I get a fair bit of LF noise from fingers and the general resonance of the instrument that is really distracting. If I'm too close to the L1, it gets worse. It's not really feedback, but it might be.

I think this is some low-frequency attenuation or a high-pass filter in the acoustic guitar presets. The details of the Presets are not published, but that is what I hear. Try this:

Try this:

and then use the zEQ to fine tune.

Take a tour through all the Acoustic Guitar presets to see if there's something you like. Check out the Taylor Guitar Presets too. Try the ones that include the word "strum" in the description.

3. I believe the channel gain is set correctly (green lights, rare blinks of red),

This sounds right.

but at certain point, no matter how far we turn the channel volume up, it doesn't change the perceived volume.

When you hit the point turning up the channel volume doesn't change the perceived volume, you're at the limit of what the system can output. I think the issue may be alleviated by using zEQ to reduce the low end.

This is a starting point. Experiment by further reducing the Low setting until you hear an improvement. If you want to really hear what is happening, you can press the left-most button under the display to Bypass the zEQ setting.

Press that same button again to return to your current setting.

Let me return to this.

KindredDuo posted:

Lately, my wife has complained that my cello doesn't carry into the room as well as the rest of the instruments do, especially in loud rooms. When I play, the sound from the stage is full (sometimes TOO loud). I really can't tell how far the cello carries from my seat.

You could try reducing the sound of the guitar in the lower frequencies where there is overlap with the cello.

I think that's a start to my cello issues.

We've had the system for probably four years now, and love it. We've been able to push it well beyond its advertised abilities with great success. Within the last two weeks we purchased two compacts for smaller events and there is still a lot to learn to make them work the way we'd like. Perhaps those question are better left to another thread.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Dave

Try connecting the Cello directly to Compact Channel 2 with the ToneMatch switch set to Guitar (up position).  That includes a high-pass filter.  Then try it again with the ToneMatch switch set to Line Level (down position).  

Which switch setting gives you the clearest sound.

ST

ST,

Thank you so much for your detailed reply.  I appreciate the time it took, and your expertise.  You are a real asset to the Forum. 

I have a lot of work to do! I'll keep you posted. 

Dave

 

Nice catch Tony!  I forgot that there is a Realist Preset for Cello.

Hi Dave,

Tony gave you the link to Presets / ToneMatch / Downloads

There's a video on that page. Please watch this before installing the

David Gage / The Realist Presets.

Installing ToneMatch® Preset Banks




more details

ST

Hi ST,

"Nice catch Tony!  I forgot that there is a Realist Preset for Cello."

I didn't even know it until I accessed the page. I was actually going to have a look to see what presets there were for an upright bass and saw that there are David Gage Realist presets. Sheer luck. 

And regarding the upload he should have no problems if he watches your video.

Hi Dave, just a thought. It might be an idea to make a note of which T1 you upload the Cello presets to.

Tony

Hello All!

Thanks so much for your input! I will have to try downloading those presets when I get a chance to breath! It's the start of our March Madness St Patrick's Day style, so I'll be able to breathe again next Monday.

I just got back from a gig at a senior center in a typical church basement. I was able to set a tonematch for the cello to a Taylor preset and it was an AMAZING DIFFERENCE! Don't tell my wife, but I might be in love with the T1 again. I also left the M13 in the car. 

Regarding that, I always have dreams of these super atmosheric sounds for the cello, which never really pan out in the live settings we are playing. Too much noise for the effects to be effective.

Thanks again for all the advice, I'll look forward to more advice in the future.

Best,

Dave 

Hi Dave,

Thanks for coming back to let us know how you are doing. It's great to know that using a Taylor Guitar preset was an improvement.

I'll look forward to hearing more when you've had a chance to try the David Gage / Realist Preset.

Have fun.

ST

Hi Dave,

thanks from me too. Looking forward to your next update. Until then:

mceclip0

Have a good St. Patrick's Day and don't forget about hangovers 

Tony