I have a family bluegrass band. We have 2 Li model 2s , 2 T1s, 4 bass modules. We have an area mic KSM 44 center stage with 2 KSM 109 stage left (banjo and fiddle solo) and a KSM 109 and SM81 (Mandolin and guitar solo mics). Feedback is the issue with 5 condenser mics on stage and forget monitors. We woulod lie to eliminate feedback and have monitors. Anyone with success in this scenerio?
Hi PFB,
I am going to assume you move about the stage a bit and sing through the KSM44, and move to the other mics for lead breaks only.
With the L1 systems behind the band and 5 open mics it will very difficult to get any serious volume with out creating feedback.
Even with all the instrument mics covered by a player, the Studio style vocal mic set to pick up voices from a distance of several inches is nearly impossible to utilize without feedback.
The only suggestion I can make that might work is to move the L1’s to the side and forward.
The L1s have a very wide dispersion and performers can often get a decent monitor with them in a forward position.
Try them (the L1s) at least even with the mic stands and maybe angled in just a little toward stage center.
I know that purists don’t like pickups in their instruments but modern pickups and the Bose L1 make a great match and offer very realistic and natural sound for many instruments.
Nickle Creek was one of the best for using pickups. I don’t think their audience minded.
Experiment a bit with different positions and come back and let us know if you find a good workable setup.
O…
Hi Peterson Family Band,
Thank you for joining the Forum.
Since you have
two L1®s, you might could try an approach that Bose suggests in this article.
Bluegrass Band with L1®s
Please click the picture to see the whole article.
The article predates the Model II but I think the principles could still be applicable. If you try this approach please let us know how it works for you.
Thanks.
I was there for all of this too. First of all, these are all first rate professional touring musicians. We’ll post their names and website and maybe some audio samples when they send that along to us.
I’ve been in this business for a long long time and I simply was not prepared for what happened when we added the second mic/speaker combination. It was like going from 2D to 3D, or from mono to 5.1. Everything just opened up. It was also the most astonishing live-music demo of the cocktail party effect I’ve ever experinced. By turning off one side, then turning it back on you would get the most vivid evidence that having voices and instruments come from different directions adds dramatically to our ability to hear them.
Please keep in mind that this group, like many bluegrass groups, wants to play in as natural a way as possible. The ideal is to just play acoustically. When you walked up on stage you really felt you were just in their living room. When you walked out into the house you felt you were in a technicolor cinemascope bluegrass dream.
I’m especially excited about the simplicity of the setup:
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxPxxxPxxxPxxxPxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxM1xxxxxxM2xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxCR1xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxCR2xx
(I hope this Fred Flinstone Atari diagram comes out okay. Sorry about all the x’s – I couldn’t make spaces work. Perhaps ST could take a crack at a real illustration?)
M1 was attached to CR1 and M2 to CR2.
It really sounded incredibly full and hi fi. We used Preset 00 for everything.
Big thanks to the pros that helped us dial this in today. They are the real deal.
Music is Human.
quote:a technicolor cinemascope bluegrass dream.
Thanks guys, for the play-by-play! 'Fuel for road warriors...
Here’s hoping I got the sense of it. Bet it was amazing.
ST,
Yup, you nailed it my friend. The change from the mono, one mic listening experience to the two was remarkable. Every instrument seemed to just open up and bloom. It was neat to have experienced the change.
Steve
PS Anyone who says musicians can’t mix themselves has never heard this group. Their mix was perfect … just plain perfect. I’m still amazed at how well the banjo cut through and made it in the mix … very cool. It’s clear to me I still have a lot to learn. 
ST,
YES!
A few details that will improve the accuracy of the sketch:
- The speakers were cheated in toward the center of the room by about 15 degrees.
- Mandolin, bass, and guitar all sing.
- The mic on the right was not aimed to the right but was aimed straight like the left hand mic.
- In scale shown speakers were another 30% or so further out to the sides, or about three feet I estimate further than what you’ve shown.
- I believe that adding a stage outline would greatly enhance the clarity of the illustration.
You rock ST. Big time.
Hi Ken,
Sure, I can make those changes.
- How
a) wide /
b) deep is the stage?
Haven’t been able to tell from the pictures.
- How many feet were the mics from the L1’s
— I’ve got them about:
---- c) 2 feet back
---- d) 4 feet “in”
- So I’ve got another sense of it,
---- e)about how far apart would you say the L1’s were?
---- f)were they setup at the center of the stage or _______
These should be:
a)
b)
c)
d)
e)
f)
Please show stage as about 6’ deep and 20’ wide (in actuality ours is deeper and wider but I’m thinking of an illustration for the general case – not one for this particular case).
The mikes were each about 6-8 feet from the speakers with about two feet between the mikes.
CR1 6’ M1 2’ M2 6’ CR2
The mikes were about two feet behind the L1’s,
Band and mikes were centered between the two L1s.
I hope this is enough info. Please let me know if not.
quote:Originally posted by Steve-at-Bose:
I'm still amazed at how well the banjo cut through and made it in the mix ... very cool. It's clear to me I still have a lot to learn.
Steve, it's clear you have not listened to much bluegrass, otherwise you would have known that the banjo can cut through anything. There is a good reason why you never hear anyone say "turn up the Banjo"
I hope this exercise turns into a research project, to determine the best setup configuration and mic choices for bluegrass and other, all acoustic, styles of music.
To be able to use high quality "area" mics with this Bose technology to amplify music being done in the most traditional manner, I think is very exciting.
To be able to make a suggestion for use that doesn't include, "install a pickup" I think would be rewarding to many traditional musicians, as well as all the At-Bose-Folks.
Thanks guys, Oldghm
Guys, this is 'uge! (ST, thanks for the usual visual wonderment, right on the money)
I was late for the earlier “backline” experiments (Chiropractor visit/evidence of start of tennis season) and walked in when they were playing into the 2-mic dual system. It’s hard to describe what I experienced. The band was playing (these guys were killing it!!) and it was just a big exciting version of what you’d expect from a normal “acoustic” ensemble. It was totally organic. Tony and I took the remotes and turned both systems up and down while they were playing and I swear it just got bigger but remained spectrally intact. The lead singer just got a little closer for leads (he simply leaned in a little) to the 414 and the mix was perfect, evidence that they could hear it all. They later confirmed this. The big deal for me was the elegance and organic purity of the setup. 2 mics, stand up and play. At the very least, you’d expect a tangle of 7 or 8 wires connecting various thingys to a mixer or something. This was 2 mics, period. The upright bass sounded full and perfect in the mix, you could hear all the instruments in detail and the voices, in my opinion, had qualities you simply can’t get with eat-the-mic. Honestly, everything sounded amazing and the stage was totally clean and clear. As usual, the L1’s disappeared off to the sides. No oil derricks (mic stands) and clown noses (ball mic pop filters) cluttering the stage front, just the cats and their instruments.
I suppose the only drawback to such an approach is you can’t play blisteringly loud due to feedback. (That’s not how you “rock” anyway. It’s all in the fingers.) These guys played great! Hats off to Rich for trying a very brave and useful experiment. This was, for me, one of the most spectacular and creative new uses of our system I have ever seen. (Rich was also present for the Tom Paxton Martin presets, ended up doing most of the curve himself and got approving harrumphs from everyone present. Who is this guy?)
Again, I think this is a new stake in the ground for amplifying this format of ensemble. The sound quality, I believe, can’t be replicated using “mulitirack” techniques. It’s simple and way closer to the “plug and play” ideal we aspire to. It can probably be used for an audience of 400. I think the sound level is totally in keeping with what bluegrass artists want for their audiences. I have seen the future of amplified bluegrass…
quote:Originally posted by Cliff-at-Bose:
I think this is a new stake in the ground for amplifying this format of ensemble.
You may be too young to remember but these groups are going back to the mic techniques that were used at the conception of Big Mon's music for radio performances and recordings.
Of course, the wonderful PAS now enables groups to extend this genuine sound to their live audiences. What a gas!
Rhonda Vincent's hard working/playing group should check this out along with 100's of other bluegrass bands around the world. You do know the Japanese culture holds this folk art form in highest regard?
I can't tell you how many times you get sound contractors who only know LOUD bass/drums and nothing about acoustic bluegrass instrument requirements. Get these things on festival stages and the word will spread like wildfire!
Steve cracked-me-up about the banjo, LOL...
How’s this?
Shaded area is the stage
The band was Adam Dewey and Crazy Creek:
Adam Dewey on mandolin
Brian Clancey on guitar
Joe Singleton on bass
Rich Stillman on banjo
www.adamdewey.com
Hey ST,
The drawing looks great. I’ll repeat that your illustrations are beautiful works of art.
I once asked the brilliant guru of information design, and Yale professor Edward Tufte what he thought about the cave paintings at Altamira and Lescaux (sp?) and elsewhere – did he think it was art or information – and his answer hit me like a freight train: “I am indifferent to the distinction.” BOINGGGGG! Your work feels that way to me.
And now from the stratosphere to the dirt:
There’s no need to have two different kinds of microphones, and I don’t feel that there’s a need to have a very expensive large diaphragm mic either. (I’d love to do a blind test to prove my point.) I believe that the big large-diaphragm condensers are used for two reasons: they’re expensive so they must sound that much better, and they look old-timey like the way the old radio broadcasts were done back when the world was a better place.
The only reason we didn’t use two of the same mikes is we didn’t have two lying around.
(No need to change the mikes in the illustration unless you’re inspired.)
The canonical setup I think would be two high quality cardioids on their appropriate presets. OM-5s would work great. This would bring the system price down to about $4,500 for a brilliant presentation of acoustic ensemble music.
Given the excruciatingly long hours of practice, the reduction in setup time and transportation costs, and the piece of mind musically to just plug in two mikes, unpack your instrument and play, this seems like a good value to me.
The band was Adam Dewey and Crazy Creek:
Adam Dewey on mandolin
Brian Clancey on guitar
Joe Singleton on bass
Rich Stillman on banjo
www.adamdewey.com
Revisions:
Stage area - darkened
Powerstands now canted inwards 15°
Added notes about the microphones. I thought it was nice to leave the actual microphones used in the image, but added the notes for clarification.
quote:Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
I don't feel that there's a need to have a very expensive large diaphragm mic either. (I'd love to do a blind test to prove my point.)
The canonical setup I think would be two high quality cardioids on their appropriate presets. OM-5s would work great.
Ken,
I didn't expect the suggestion/recommendation of the OM 5 or any other tight cardioid pattern dynamic mics. To my ear even the best of them lose much of the low end when the distance from mic to music source is greater than 2 feet.
I look forward to hearing the results of your blind test.
Oldghm
Oldghm and ASAT,
I was “banjo challenged” but now I’m on a 12 step banjo program. There’s hope for me.
Steve
PS I can tell you a lot about Eddie Van Halen’s and Stevie Ray Vaughan’s guitars and amplifcation setups though. 
Tony(-At-Bose). Thanks for posting this.
Ironically, after following this forum for a year and with the little experimenting we’ve done with the one PAS we have, I had (recently) pretty much come to the same conclusion for the one mic method: I.e., put the PAS out front, rather than behind. I also thought that adding a 2nd PAS and mic to our setup would be sufficient, but it is good to hear about how much of a improvement it would make. Maybe next year. 
As I’ve mentioned previously, the musicians are 3 of my kids (and one other), not me, and their desire is to use the one mic method. Blue Lightning. We’ve not had opportunity to use the PAS at public performances yet, as a system has always been provided, but we’re hoping to change that soon. I’m convinced that once people hear how good it sounds, it’ll be an easy sell…
I recently purchased an AT 3035 based on some online reviews and initial testing with the PAS seemed pretty positive. Glad to hear a /- $1000 mic isn’t required…
Like Oldghm, I also was surprised to see the OM-5 recommendation.
In addition to the blind test Ken-At-Bose mentioned, I’d be interested in the results of a similar test for a traditional bluegrass band which had each band member with their own PAS and mic(s) v.s. the double PAS/condensor mic setup. Does this sound like something the Bose folks could make happen???
Anyway thanks again. We’re looking forward to many years of making music and just having fun, with the PAS of course …