Hello all,
I have 2 L1 Model II with 2 B1’s per tower. I have a 40 channel mixer for running 9 mics, 1 keyboard, 1 acoustic guitar, 1 bass guitar, 1 electric guitar, 1 roland vdrums with 10 outputs, and a mic’d piano. The towers are about 10’ apart. Our sound has been good, but I think it could sound better. I have been reading on the forum and am a little confused on the set up from a analog mixer to the towers. I have read to pan all of the vocals to one side and all of the instruments to the other and connect them to the towers that way. Then, I have also read that some are using the T1 to run all mics to one T1 and the instruments to the other T1 because the presets are better than our own eq, reverb, etc. I am currently running left and right out of the mixer to the towers, but am panning middle for the individual channels on the mixer. Thoughts for either running directly from the mixer into the towers or running into 2 T1?
HI gregrpbc!
Welcome to the Bose Message board! You’ve come to the right place for some input on your configuration.
I’d like to suggest that perhaps you take a few moments and sketch out your stage layout in the Sketcher tool. That will help everyone understand your setup and configuration and provide a common ground for understanding your needs and requirements.
I’m sure others will be by to offer their suggestions, but I just happened to see your post as I was checking the board for messages. After you’ve completed a sketch of your layout, I’m sure you’ll receive some useful suggestions.
Again, welcome to the board.
John
Hi gregrpbc,
Thanks for using The Sketcher! Here is your Sketch.
– click image to make changes to the live version –
Quoting gregrpbc from The Sketcher
quote:Mics are Sennheiser ew100 series
We use AKG cs1000 for mic at keys and acoustice guitar
Hi, gregrpbc: One quick question based on
Do you currently have 2 T1’s? (Not that it really makes much difference when it comes to alternative configurations – just in what you can try quickly…)quote:…Thoughts for either running directly from the mixer into the towers or running into 2 T1…
No…I don’t have the 2 T1’s.
Without going into the voices, what I would do first with your existing setup is to:
- Pan half the vocal mics one way, half the other.
- Pan the keyboard and acoustic piano to opposite sides.
- Pan the acoustic and electric guitar to opposite sides.
- Pan the bass guitar and the kick drum to opposite sides. (Maybe the toms to the same side as the kick drum … that I’d experiment with a bit.)
- Perhaps … pan the remainder of the drum kit opposite the kick (& tom?). However, might want to leave the whole drum kit into a single L1.
That should help “clarify” the overall sound – it will sound different on the stage, and it may take a little adjustment of the group to get used to the difference.
Edit: Just a note as to the advantages of doing this “panning”: First, it helps minimize the potential for feedback between the mics and the L1s, because you have fewer “open mics” connected to each L1.
More importantly, it helps the audience to hear each performer separately; this is the so-called ‘cocktail party effect’ (see Wikipedia article and the L1 Wiki article.
More importantly, it helps the audience to hear each performer separately; this is the so-called ‘cocktail party effect’ (see Wikipedia article and the L1 Wiki article.
If the performers have some trouble hearing from the “opposite” side, the first thing I’d try – if feasible – is to move the L1’s a little closer together. Last resort would be to “bleed” a little of whatever “can’t be heard well” into the opposite L1 (not to the “mid-point”; just enough to let the opposite side hear well).
For example, looking at your sketch, I might try physically swapping the bass player position with the acoustic (or electric) guitar player (not both!), so the bass guitar would be coming from the L1 closest to them, but not the same L1 as the (kick) drum kit.
A vocal “refinement” would be to have a mix of male & female voices from each L1; that is, don’t put all the female voices to one side and all the male voices to the other. Arrange the singers so that those on the left hear their sound from the left L1 – likewise on the right.
With that basis, and some more specific model information on the mixer, we can discuss how the T1 might help improve things even further. But try those simple panning suggestions for a starting point and let us know how it goes and what issues arise…
Will try your suggestion…I have an Allen and Heath GL2400-40 mixer.
Better, but I think the sound is not as full as it should be. I’m also getting some feedback on mics. We use an external dbx eq, and I’m running it pretty flat but still getting some feedback.
Could you perhaps describe a little more what might be "missing"?quote:Originally posted by gregrpbc:
Better, but I think the sound is not as full as it should be...
Not able to get enough vocals without feedback?
Not enough low-end?
Not enough overall volume without feedback?
Something else?
This is where even a single T1 may really help.quote:... I'm also getting some feedback on mics. We use an external dbx eq, and I'm running it pretty flat but still getting some feedback.
But first, a few more questions & suggestions:
1) How are the vocalists using the mics? Are they singing "up close" (within an inch or so of the windscreen), or are they back 6-12" or more? (Getting them to 'kiss the mic' while singing may resolve a lot of issues!)
2) Are all the vocal mics the same model ... or at least only two or three different kinds?
If the models of mics vary, one of the first things I'd do is to "wring out" the response of the various mics, using the EQ and trims on the mixer to get the mics all sounding as uniform (consistent) as possible -- and then label each mic such that they always get connected to the same channel on the mixer! And mark the mixer channel settings, too, so you can "reset" to that configuration quickly.
What a T1 can do is provide "preset" EQ curves designed to "match" different vocal mics ... and many, many other 'instruments' ... to make them sound really good.
An external EQ, "post-mixer", is a fine way to "balance the room acoustics", but it does little to help with "tailoring" the sound of a variety of different sound-sources -- such as vocal mics vs. acoustic guitar vs. keyboard/synth vs. snare 'sizzle', etc.
3) re: feedback
If the feedback is consistently the same pitch, then you ought to be able to "find" it on the DBX EQ and notch it out -- but be sure you've "normalized" all the mics first (#2 above)!
The "trick" to finding that offending frequency (not during a performance!) -- if you don't already know this -- is to increase one band at a time on the EQ until you find the one control that makes the feedback happen most readily ... then turn it into a bit of a 'cut' for that frequency. That should allow you to bring up the overall volume a bit more.
I have a few more thoughts and conjectures, but I'll await your response to the questions.
I think the sound need to be fuller…i.e. more bottom end and more richness in the mics. They sound a little tinny.
1. The vocalists are kissing the mics.
2. Mics for vocalists out front are all the same. We are using Sennheiser wireless ew100 g2 series handhelds. On the keyboards and acoustic guitar area, we use AKG CS1000
3. The DBX EQ also has an automatic feedback setting but I did not use it since I wasn’t sure that was the best way to eliminate feedback; or should I do it manually? Would you set the post mix eq flat or what suggestions do you have? The DBX has a mic that automatically sets the eq to room acoustics by sending pink noise to the mic that came with the unit. I used the flat setting…Best way or not?
Thanks for your help…
Great!quote:1. The vocalists are kissing the mics.
That certainly makes things simpler. However, you may still want to go through the 'calibration' steps. Have the same person speak/sing into each mic in turn, adjusting the trim & eq so the sound from each mic is the same quality and volume. That becomes the "reference position" for the knobs, which can then be further modified for the different people using the mics.quote:2. Mics for vocalists out front are all the same. We are using Sennheiser wireless ew100 g2 series handhelds...
On a mixer with 3 non-adjustable EQ bands, I typically find that for vocals I use a moderate amount of hi-cut, flat mid-range, and a slightly boost of the low EQ -- with the often-available low-cut filter engaged. With different voices, then, most adjustments are to perhaps reduce the low EQ (for deep male voices) or a slight mid-range boost (to add a little 'clarity' or 'brightness' to some voices).
These could be the main source of your feedback. Acoustic guitars often need a fair amount of EQ tailoring to minimize feedback and still get a 'natural' sound -- the T1 has several presets for mic'd acoustic guitars (and a lot more for various guitars with pickups installed).quote:... On the keyboards and acoustic guitar area, we use AKG CS1000 ...
Using the CS1000's for vocals can make it more difficult to get good gain-before-feedback from those vocals. Try using the Sennheisers for those vocals, too. Use the CS1000's for the acoustic instruments, such as the guitar and the piano.
You might want to read some tips on micing acoustic pianos collected here.
For the instruments, make sure you DON'T have the low-cut filter engaged ... and then try turning up the low EQ a bit. The keyboard player can probably make some adjustments themselves if it has on-board EQ. (I already made suggestions above about the vocals.)quote:I think the sound need to be fuller...i.e. more bottom end and more richness in the mics. They sound a little tinny.
The "focus", up until this point, is to get each individual input sounding as "natural" as possible.
All of the previous suggestions about "tuning" each input should be done with the DBX EQ flat -- more on the auto/vs. manual feedback control below.quote:3. The DBX EQ also has an automatic feedback setting but I did not use it since I wasn't sure that was the best way to eliminate feedback; or should I do it manually? Would you set the post mix eq flat or what suggestions do you have?...
The main problem with using a single mic to automatically EQ a room is that it really only makes that one location (where the mic is) 'adjusted'. Now, if there is a display which can show you the 'recommended' EQ curve, then one could take the time to try various locations within the room (via a long mic cord!) to see if there are either some common particularly bad frequencies or "odd" room responses which could be dealt with via the DBX ... but you don't want to "adjust" the room acoustics based on just the measurements at one listening position.quote:... The DBX has a mic that automatically sets the eq to room acoustics by sending pink noise to the mic that came with the unit. I used the flat setting...
Once you have the whole system set up the way that gives the most 'natural' sound, then you might engage the automatic 'feedback elimination' on the DBX (not the automatic room EQ). The purpose is not to deal with "being able to get louder", but to deal with an unexpected change in the setup -- such as someone taking one of the CS1000's off its stand and walking around with it, or someone placing their hand over the end of the mic (which more often causes feedback than it prevents it!).
Just reset any automatic feedback adjustments after the event, so they don't 'carryover' into the next event.
---------------------------------
FYI: With the T1, all that EQ tailoring for a 'natural' sound is easier because there are a variety of Presets; one will probably be a real good 'starting point' for the mic or instrument, and the "zEQ" bands are tailor for the particular instrument's frequency range.
The T1 also provides for saving of 'scenes' (as do the more expensive large digital mixers), which can really be helpful for a variety of different groups and usages of the facility.
Integrating one or two T1's into your existing setup could be useful ... but both a non-trivial expense and an non-trivial re-configuration of the board. I would strive for fine-tuning your existing setup, then we can explore how T1's might be integrated.
I will try your suggestions. Just to clarify, I’m using the AKG’s for vocal mics only. The piano has a mic inside and the acoustic guitar has a pick up.
I’m getting closer to thinking that the T1’s would be a good time to try and am anxious as to your suggestions with them.
Thanks for alot of great information…
I tried some of the suggestions and I have some improvement. I still don’t have the richness in the vocals that I would like. It still sound a little tinny and not as surrounding as a sound as I would like. I have purchased two of the T1’s and would appreciate any suggestions about how to use them in my set up.
Great!quote:Originally posted by gregrpbc:
I tried some of the suggestions and I have some improvement.
Before getting into anything with the mixer, first try running a few of the mics directly through the T1 into one of the L1's (via the digital link). The purpose, at this stage, is simply to see if you can get the vocal-mic sound you are seeking.quote:... I still don't have the richness in the vocals that I would like. It still sound a little tinny and not as surrounding as a sound as I would like. I have purchased two of the T1's and would appreciate any suggestions about how to use them in my set up.
Perhaps, even, start with just one mic per T1 for each L1. Try various mic Presets, and tweak the zEQ, to get the most "natural" sound you can get. The 'Mute' button makes it easy to compare the "real" voice to the amplified voice. Start out with no effects; just see how close you can get to "that sound" without any effects.
It may be that the room acoustics are a major issue, so don't be afraid about trying some rather major zEQ tweaking ... but always go back to the un-amplified voice as your reference -- it can be too easy to "get lost" in some of the interesting possible changes of sound.
If you can get "the sound" from one voice with the T1, then I'm sure that you can use it to make some helpful improvements for all the voices.
Once you get familiar with the T1 and what it can do to the vocalists' sound, then we can discuss various ways you might integrate them into the full-fledged mixing board environment.
Okay…I plugged a mic into the T1 and after working with the settings on the mic…wow…it is the sound I’m hoping to get out of every mic! Now, how do I incorporate all of my mics into this? It doesn’t have enough inputs, plus my wireless rack is too far to plug into the T1.
Also, I have a set of Roland vdrums with the td-10 control head. How do I set this up since it has an eq, etc.? and how do I set up the keys, electric guitar, acoustic guitar and bass guitar through this since the T1 doesn’t have enough inputs.
Again, thanks for all of the help…
That's great!quote:Originally posted by gregrpbc:
Okay..I plugged a mic into the T1 and after working with the settings on the mic...wow...it is the sound I'm hoping to get out of every mic!
Before delving into using the two T1's with the big mixer ... a few more questions (of course!!)
1) Have you tried one of each mic type yet? (That is, which mic did you use to get the 'great' sound ... the ew100 or a cs1000 ?) Try the "other" mic into the other T1 (or another channel of the one you used first) and try the various settings (presets, zEQ, etc) so that you know what differences in the settings are required for the two types of mics.
2) You might also take a moment and try, with the "first" mic-type, some of the other mics of that same type ... without touching any of the T1 settings ... so that you have some sense of how much variation there is between the different mics within the same make & model.
Ideally, the major difference between mics-of-the-same-type will be minor differences in the "trim" setting to get a uniform volume between the mics (which will be easy to adjust at the large mixer).
This leads to a few more "philosophical" questions to consider.quote:...Now, how do I incorporate all of my mics into this? It doesn't have enough inputs, plus my wireless rack is too far to plug into the T1. Also, I have a set of Roland vdrums with the td-10 control head. How do I set this up since it has an eq, etc.? and how do I set up the keys, electric guitar, acoustic guitar and bass guitar through this since the T1 doesn't have enough inputs...
3) Do you want to retain absolute control at the main-mixer? Or do you want to put the T1's into the hands of a few key musicians? It'll make a difference in how things get connected.
4) Do you currently ... or have a desire to ... create live recordings ... or to feed a "whole house" signal to a remote location? If the answer to any is "Yes", then the primary alternatives are to:
- record off the main mixer directly
- record off the T1's (if they are located "between" the mixer and the L1's, rather than "in front of" the mixer).
- record from "house mics" which are located used solely for recording and not used for amplification.
When not using a fancy (& usually expensive) multi-track recording setup, I personally prefer the last alternative ... separate recording mics.
5) Do you have the separately purchased power supplies for the T1's?
6) Lastly: Is your stage layout posted previously (above) still fairly close, or have you moved some performers around?
Perhaps you could say a little more about the singers (particularly the gender mix and harmonization done by those using the 7 "front" mics). Are there one or two people who are generally the "lead singers" ... and where are they on the stage layout?
- Yes…I’ve worked with both mics and I am getting the sound I searching for…
2) Great idea…did that…
3) Yes…retain absolute control at the main mixer…although the idea of me controlling the instruments and the mixer controlling the mics sounds intriguing
4) We only record messages from the pastor on a lapel mic and do so through a mac computer off a ling out on the mixer
5) I have the tonematch for L1 ModelII…they are powered through the towers…I don’t see a power supply port on the T1…
6) I have move the bass player, per your suggestion, to the other side; that way the bass is coming out of one tower and the drums out of the other. Cleaned up the bottom end.
From left to right my vocals are male-tenor, female-alto, female-alto/tenor, female-lead, male-lead, female-2nd soprano, female-alto/2nd soprano. In the back the keyboard and acoustic guitar doubles on tenor.
Thanks again for your thorough look into our set up. We have already made improvements per your suggestions…
Just a couple of quick followup items:
I presume the settings are different for the two different mics? (…such that you’d probably want to be able to ‘tailor’ the wireless mics separately from the cs1000’s…) Just for the sake of curiosity – what settings did you like on the T1 for each of the mic types?quote:1) Yes…I’ve worked with both mics and I am getting the sound I searching for…
The separate power supply for the T1 is used in place of the the digital cable from the Model II base. If you use the separate T1 power supply, then you’d use the Master or AUX analog outputs to connect to the Model II analog input.quote:5) I have the tonematch for L1 ModelII…they are powered through the towers…I don’t see a power supply port on the T1…
Using the digital cable is simple, but the separate power supply increases the alternatives for where one can physically locate the T1’s.
Thanks for the details … some ways to configure the mixer with the T1’s coming soon …
I actually changed the AKG CS-1000s to two ev n/d 457B’s that we had lying around. It helped with the feedback. I’m using the presets for ev n/d 957 and tweaking it with some reverb and zeq. I’ve actually practiced with one wireless mic on that setting and like it as well.
I did purchase the two external power supplies so I’m ready to see how to configure the mixer with the T1’s.