I’ve been asked to ‘run sound’ for about a doz. retirees who play ukes and sing. There’s an outdoor gig coming up and I want to avoid the behemoth sound system the group inherited. Can my one L1 1S tower and a Mackie 8-channel analog mixer do the trick - with 2 ribbon mics, 30" apart and the tower off to the side? I have access to condenser and dynamic mics, too. Thanks!
Hi JayEug,
Thank you for joining the Forum.
quote:Originally posted by JayEug:
Can my one L1 1S tower and a Mackie 8-channel analog mixer do the trick - with 2 ribbon mics, 30" apart and the tower off to the side? I have access to condenser and dynamic mics, too.
What kind of ribbon microphones are these? (Make and Model please - and a link to the specifications would be nice).
Many ribbon microphones are bidirectional, so they may pick up the audience, and I don’t imagine you want to do that.
Why 30" specifically?
How far back from the microphones will the performers be?
How many performers will there be on the stage at any given time.
The issues I’m considering are captured here: How to Mic a Choir (despite the title, the same issues may apply to your situation.
ST
Thank you for the link. I’m familiar with the concept. The 30" apart was something I saw online last night and can’t find the info today - poss about stereo set up.
Ribbon mic I’m considering: Cascade Fatheads, spec link: http://www.cascademicrophones…_head_mic_report.pdf
(I realize now the pattern’s not ideal).
The group likes to be in a semi-circle to hear one another and all play ‘unplugged’. The group is not mic or PA savvy.
When the old system is used, 2 condensers set up like the choir mic article suggests and maybe 2-3 Shure 58’s between a few people in the front row, which pretty much are useless because most panic that their voice will be heard above others. People like/demand monitors when the system is used. Feedback is always a problem. (I’m not the sound person on these details).
I’m hoping the Bose behind the group would be enough for being outdoors and eliminate use of monitors. If I did return to 2 condensers above and 1 Shure 58 for announcing and solo singing, would the 1 LS tower be adequate and could it be centered between the 2 condenser mics or is it by trial and error?
Thanks for you replies - much appreciated.
Hi JayEug,
This is a tough one.
I know you know this, …
The basic principle with respect to gain-before-feedback is the source must be louder at the microphone than the amplified sound from the loudspeaker. The situation you’ve described is going to be a challenge if you have performers who are microphone shy (most panic that their voice will be heard above others) AND like/demand monitors. See: Microphone Feedback in the wiki.
Are there going to be 12 performers playing/singing at the same time?
This is going to take some trust on the part of the performers.
In this situation I’d consider setting up without the monitors with two cardioid pattern microphones. I’d skip the ribbon microphones for this application.
In the picture above, there is a third microphone stand between the two microphones. There was nothing on that stand - but the performers used that as the focal point. That is… they were told to play to the imaginary microphone and disregard the two that were on the sides.
From your description of the situation, I’d skip the Shure SM58s because it sounds like they will be useless and a source of feedback.
As you suggested I would put the L1® to the side (not behind). If you can, you might want to put it ahead of the line drawn by the microphones.
Yes - there will be no monitoring, but it will what they’re used when they are not amplified.
You didn’t tell us… how many people will there be in the audience? Or can you tell us more about the show?
ST
edits - spelling
Thanks, ST.
Yes, the entire group sings and plays all together 99% of time. Did I mention loss of hearing issues in several players 
We don’t have lg diaphragm condensers, so that puts us back like the choir set up in the article it seems (2 rows players/mics above and aimed appropriately).
The setting is a park with a regularly-traveled adjacent street. I believe we’ll be on grass under a few trees by a large neighborhood pool with surrounding concrete decking and brick pool house. There are some water park features like fountains and slides, and will be screaming kids, I suppose. We’ll be bkgd music (like we had a choice, eh?)
The party is being thrown for clients and their families. I wouldn’t imagine more than 100-150 people.
So, you think the one L1 is up to the task? The group may grumble about no monitors, but I’ll be beaming if feedback is averted for the entire gig.
JayEs
I like and will remember the idea shown in the photo for some sm groups I deal with.
Hi JayEs,
I don’t think that you need large diaphragm condensers. What have you got?
It sounds like you’re going to have some traffic noise, and the sounds of summer; A real-life outdoor venue, so background music ye shall be.
Is one Model 1S up to the task? Well given realistic expectations, yes. If people are free to move about then those who want to listen will organically move in toward the show. If you’ve got seating, then put the seats and stage area in close proximity. There’s no fear that you’ll blast people out with the L1®.
I just did an outdoor show and the crew set up a couple of rows of seats for some elderly folks. They put the chairs a good 30 feet back from the stage and I can only assume that they did this to avoid loud PA speakers.
–=== click the picture for more about the event ===–
This created a strange psychological barrier and initially … no one wanted to come in closer. I was doing sound that day, and I didn’t notice this until the event had started. Eventually I had one of the speakers (talkers) invite people in.
Anyway, as you probably know, there’s little fear of being too too loud with the L1®, so you can put seating right up close to the stage.
As for no monitors… well, you can use them if the players grumble, but I think it will limit what you can do for them.
Are you going to be on an elevated stage? How high?
Oh - and for that two microphone setup - check out this article:
L1® Traditional Music System
Thanks, ST. I read thru all links you sent, esp liked reading/seeing about the outdoor gig.
After tracking down the group’s equipment list, the condenser mics are AKG C1000s http://www.akg.com/pro/p/c1000s
(For sure, I’d use the cardioid pattern). Also discovered their dynamic mics are hypercardioid AKG D8000S - no wonder there’s usually been feedback with the mix of mics monitors. I’ll not be using monitors on the 18th, but I’ll bring along my Sennheiser e835 cardioid dynamic mic for announcements. http://en-us.sennheiser.com/li…ne-vocal-stage-e-835
Now the nitty gritty: choir-style set up with the condensers above, the L1 slightly ahead of the mic ‘line’ - and slightly bowed in (10-15 deg) towards the band? Put the Sennheiser along the same axis as the AKGs or can it be anywhere behind the ‘line’? Is a 2nd L1 needed? (I’d have to scramble for one).
There’s no stage. We’ll be seated ground level. I’m not sure if any chairs for listeners will be provided. I doubt it.
Thanks a lot for all your help and advice!
Jay
Hi Jay,
It sound you have a handle on things. You probably don’t need to turn the L1® inward. That was appropriate in 2005 when that article about Traditional music was written.
The Model 1S has a wider horizontal dispersion that the original L1® Classics they were using in 2005. You can tune (turn) that by ear at the show.
When is the show?
ST
Hi, ST,
My work now is to show that we can have high quality sound w/o tons of gear and survive w/o monitors.
The show is the 18th.
Thanks for all your help,
Jay
Good luck.
Try a couple of big condensor mics and don’t worry at all about monitors.
Put your L1 well ahead to minimize feedback and turn the mics up as much as you can.
Tell them to pretend they are around a campfire and not just pound their instruments. If they can’t hear the lead player or singer then they are playing too loudly. Be respectful and quieter on leads and vocals. Put the lead singer and or lead player at a mic. Do the mic dance.
I do sound for a bluegrass group with seven players/singers with one mic, Shure KSM44. They really like it and it sounds great. They move in and out to the mic as needed.
I think a ribbon mic would be cool.