First off I would just like to say That for half the gig’s do I use just one L1. That being said I find that there a just some times where I need two L1’s. There are times that one L1 works great for 200 people & times that I feel two sound much better. I think the main factor is the room.
Even though the general rule is to put 20 feet between them L1’s, I almost never have that much room to put between the two L1’s. To be honest usually only have enough room to put 7-10 feet between the two. In the pic’s are of I did a wedding at our local Casino’s Convention Center. There were about 260 guests in fairly good sized room. I set up two L1’s about 7 feet apart & four B1’s under the table.
During the dinner music section of the event I shut off one L1 & walked around the room then turned it back on & walked around the room during the same song. The result was that the single L1 sounded good all through the room, but two sounded awesome. To elaborate with the two L1’s it sounded much more powerful & full with there being a more pronounce richness in the mid-range. Plus I didn’t notice any cancellation.
I know that it has been said that it is OK to run the L1’s that close if you are running it stereo from the mixer, but don’t forget that allot of sounds in recordings are in mono. Some of these “mono” sounds typically include vocals, drums & guitar. Is it OK to run stereo L1’s at lets say 7 feet from each other when allot of the sounds in the songs we play are recorded in mono?
As for the B1’s I sometimes have enough room to but 8 feet from them to the back wall. I’ve always been a little fuzzy on this rule. Is it 8 feet from the back of the b1’s or from the grill? Also what happens when you have to put the B1 like seven,six,five feet from the back wall?
A pic of most of the room.
For me, the “distance” guideline (>15-20’) is for when you KNOW that you are running a pure mono signal.
The issue of a stereo source (pre-recorded music) having some “mono” sounds in it is really a non-issue because (hopefully!) the recording engineer has already taken care of making those “centered tracks” sound good when coming from two places (i.e.: stereo speakers).
The distance/dual mono issue most commonly becomes a factor when you have a SINGLE CHANNEL (be it music or voice) that is being sent to two relatively closely spaced speakers (at equal volume, phase, delay, etc.).
Thus, stereo sources sent to two L1, at almost any distance apart, will sound great.
However, some DJ’s have found that their vocal / announcement mic does not sound as good when that single mic is sent to two closely-spaced L1’s. This is exactly the same as with live music – it is usually best to have one “voice/instrument” come from only one L1.
A lot depends on the particulars of the rooms, spacing, B1 placement, etc., etc., so it MAY be that one can be quite happy with the sound of one microphone sent to two L1’s only 8 feet apart. – Great!
However, if you’re not happy with the sound of a single mic sent identically through two L1 … try connecting it to just one L1. It may sound clearer and allow you MORE headroom (volume before feedback becomes a problem).
Good input Dan. I havn’t run into any Problems running one mic to two L1 as of yet. Anyone out there care to comment on the 8 foot rule on the B1’s??? Other comments or questions are welcome.
Hi jdbassentertainment,Rules Recommendations and It Depends
When I think about acoustics, I think in terms of recommendations rather than rules.
In Chris Ickler’s article B1 Bass Module Positioning the first section is entitled is “It Depends”. That is very telling about all that follows.
With respect to the recommendation about having 20-50 feet between L1®s running in a dual mono setup - it is a recommendation.
As I read the notes on Phase Cancellation I don’t see anywhere that it it says … “If you break this rule you will have problems.”
As I read Phase Cancellation I take it to mean -
if I run dual mono and
if I hear issues like the ones in the list below, moving the L1®s apart (20-50 feet) should help.
1. “Hot” and “cold” spots in the audience area
2. Tonal coloration
3. Poor speech intelligibility
4. Lack of music clarity
5. Poor gain-before-feedback
6. Poor imaging
I also take it mean that to reduce the likelihood of the issues listed above, when running dual mono I should place L1®s at least 20-50 feet apart.
B1s and the 8 foot rule
In Chris’s article he says that the sound from the B1 comes through the grille, and when he refers to distances, he uses the grille as the reference point.
I don’t recall anything about an 8 foot rule, but Chris does say, “Sometimes we have no choice but to place B1s in that 2-7 foot (0.6-2.1 m) range and we just live with the minor reduction in bass, perhaps compensating with a bass tone control boost.”
Source: B1 Bass Module Positioning
When I talk about these recommendations I do that with mindset that with all the uncertainties that come up with acoustics, these recommendations will help you to avoid some issues. It does NOT mean that failure to adhere to the recommendations will result in specific problems. It does mean that if you want to avoid certain problems, following the recommendations should minimize the likelihood that they will occur.
Example:
Recommendation: Drive within posted speed limits. Failure to do so may result in a speeding ticket.
- To me this means: To avoid a speeding ticket, drive within the posted speed limit.
- This does not mean that if I ignore the recommendation (exceed the speed limit) that I WILL get a speeding ticket.
- It does allow the interpretation that if follow the recommendation I probably won’t get a speeding ticket.
- If I ignore the recommendation and I do not get a ticket, it does not mean that this will always be the case. Nor does it mean that others can do as I have done without dire consequences.
Here is the first paragraph of the article to which I referred above.
quote:Originally posted by Chris-at-Bose:
[…] The short but annoying answer is of course, “it depends” and the slightly longer, but still unsatisfying answer is, “results will vary from case to case in ways that even the best acousticians can’t anticipate.” But you’ll often find recommendations on the web or even in technical journals by folks who have only considered a subset of the factors that contribute. The authors may not know about the other factors or, more likely, they may be hoping that those other factors can be ignored. The temptation to extrapolate beyond the part that one grasps is almost irresistible. Hope springs eternal. One wants to give a satisfying answer, even when it is out of reach.
This is not as hopeless as it sounds, because there is an important distinction between “what is best?”, which we cannot answer, and “what do you recommend that I do?” which we should and can answer. We can also say some things about “what should I NOT do?” Here I will give you a random smattering of such recommendations and hope that they will suffice […] Chris
Same source: B1 Bass Module Positioning
I guess my main question which wasn’t really answer is did he mean 7 feet from the back of the B1 or from the grill to the back wall? -I goofed it was the 7 foot rule
Hi jdbassentertainment,
quote:Originally posted by jdbassentertainment.com:
I guess my main question which wasn’t really answer is did he mean 7 feet from the back of the B1 or from the grill to the back wall? -I goofed it was the 7 foot rule
In all the explicit references to distance Chris spoke about the distance from the grille.
“Once you pick a side to rest it on, you can aim the B1 in any direction you want, forward, sideways, even firing backward toward a rear wall. If you hear a change, it is because you’ve moved the grille relative to other B1s or relative to boundaries. Don’t shove the grille into a wall or into a big obstacle, because then the sound can’t get out; leave at least 6 inches (15 cm) of space in front of the grille. The side of the box itself can be right against a wall, so long as the grille is not obstructed. We often start out placing our B1s on the floor, sideways against the rear wall, so that the first reflections from the floor and rear wall will not change the tonal balance in the bass.”
“In any arrangement where the grilles fit completely within a 30 inch (75 cm) diameter sphere, your two B1s will act like a single one, only louder.”
Same source: B1 Bass Module Positioning
Thanks to all who wrote, I’m more clear on the issues now. Sometimes when reading an article like that it helps to have some pull out pieces & put them in context. Thanks Again.
STEREO? STEREO? DONT GET ME STARTED… LOL
I got my stereo set up… QSC K12S and Im happy happy joy joy. And its only 2 pieces
Restored Post
quote:Originally posted by Kova:
Hey JD,
I have personal experience using 2 L1 Compacts and there’s one thing that I’ve learned that’s far more important than any opinion I’ve read or any suggestions from the manual.
LET YOUR EARS TELL WHAT YOU LIKE!
Seriously my friend… throw the “recommendations” out the window. When I started a similar post like this a few months back, raving about my success using 2 Compacts, I got some negative responses who wanted to rain on my parade, trying to convince me that what I was doing was wrong. After suffering the bombardment of “you shouldn’t set it up like that”, I came to the realization that their opinions counted for nothing. Why? Because my ears are the only thing that matters and so should yours.
When in doubt, trust your ears my friend. If it sounds good to you and the audience is shakin’ their butts, then rock on my friend!
If you wanna put an L1 sideways in the air and set a B1 in your lap while sitting on a stool and eating some Ding Dongs, do it. Do whatever floats your boat because there is no wrong answer.
Note to Kova,
If you wish to edit or re-post this with changes, please copy/paste the text above into a new post with any changes, and then we will remove this one.
Thank you.