T4S/T8S ToneMatch Mixers Feature Requests

Portable PA
41
ST posted:

Hi BUN,

BUN posted: Bose should make its own Windows driver for DAW to be able to utilise all 4 xlr inputs for recording to the computer. I think it is embarrassing if Bose $600 product is using generic driver.

Bose uses the driver provided by the operating system of the computer host. This is for compatibility with the widest range of devices. 

Thanks for the suggestion.

ST

Hi ST,

Not sure why do you mention "widest range of devices". I'm only talking about two: Bose mixer (T4S) and Windows OS.

Bose should offer optional proper Windows drivers for download for people who wants to use mixer for multi-track recording.

I'm sure Bose was testing multi-track driver and opted rather for "easy of use" or "plug & play" driver for dummies. Let them still use Generic Windows driver.

But for advanced users why not to publish multi-track driver at least as beta driver?

Much cheaper Zoom H5 and H6 recorders have multi-track Windows (7, 8, 10) ASIO drivers.

We live in 2019 and we do not only perform live but recording (home or in field) too. It is such a waste of nice gear.

42

Hi Bun,

The ToneMatch mixers work with several operating systems and multiple versions that support USB Audio. That's possible because Bose relies on the native USB drivers in the operating systems.

Unfortunately, the native drivers don't support your needs for multi-track recording.

Thanks for posting your feature request. 

ST

43

Presets for electronic drum kits, please.  Roland TD and Yamaha DTX series would be a good starter.

Jim S.

44

Thought I'd start a thread about issues with the T4s with a view to having them resolved by future firmware updates. (I have already installed latest firmware v1.1.4)

See appended text.

Jim S.

-----------------------------------------

Reverb Type

Reverb Time is shown as a percentage.  I know this has been commented on before but time units are measured in seconds (minutes, hours, etc.) and not “percentages”.  This needs to changed.

(Worth noting that Delay Time is shown in seconds which is what I would expect.)

Compressors

T4s Compressors Comp1, Comp2 and Comp3 all show 0dB by default on the unit but manual shows 3dB, 5dB, 8dB respectively as the default position. (T1 has defaults as 3dB, 5db and 8dB as the respective defaults.) This needs to be fixed.

ZEQ

When turning Low, Mid and High from 0.00dB to a negative value and then returning them back to zero, display shows -0.00db (i.e. with a negative sign at the front).  Whilst this is a minor issue, it’s still a programming error and should be fixed.

 

This post moved from T4s Tonematch "bugs" / observations because this discussion is monitored by Bose
Bose Pro Community Admin 

45

This shouldn't be in "future requests".  These are faults with the T4s and so should have its own separate topic and be addressed by Bose as "faults" not "future, lile-to-have requests".

I have also identified a more serious one, which, in my opinion merits urgent action. (See below)

This is my second time round with the T4s, having previously moved it on due to previous faults (some now fixed).  I have also been twice round with the Bose T8s and gave up on this because of outstanding problems with this unit.

I am a long term Bose user, owning two (2) Bose L1 Model IIs, three (3) Bose T1s and two (2) Bose B1s.

-----------------------------------------

Updated "Faults List" follows:

------------------------------------------------------------

17 October 2019 0- Faults List

Delay

Delay Time by default is: Digital 150 ms 30% 30%; Analog 275 ms 30% 30%; Tape 350 ms 30% 30% as per manual. 

 

Scenario: I set up three (3) delay settings: one for Digital, one for Analog and one for Tape.  All with different settings. However, if I then change any selection, say from Tape back to Digital, I find that ALL the settings have changed to 350 ms 20% 20% regardless of what I set previously.

This is a major error and should be fixed asap.

(The T1 always retained all the settings I se

16 October 2019

Reverb Type

Reverb Time is shown as a percentage.  I know this has been commented on before but time units are measured in seconds (minutes, hours, etc.) and not “percentages”.  This needs to changed.

(Worth noting that Delay Time is shown as seconds which is what I would expect.)

Compressors

T4s Compressors Comp1, Comp2 and Comp3 all show 0dB by default on the unit but manual shows 3dB, 5dB, 8dB respectively as the default position. (T1 has defaults as 3dB, 5db and 8dB as the respective defaults.) This needs fixed.

ZEQ

When turning Low, Mid and High from 0.00dB to a negative value and then returning them back to zero, display shows -0.00db (i.e. with a negative sign at the front).  Whilst this isn’t a big issue, it’s still a programming error and should be fixed.

------------------------------------------------------------------

46

Hi Jim S,

Thanks for your comments. 

jimboblueice posted:

This shouldn't be in "future requests".  These are faults with the T4s and so should have its own separate topic and be addressed by Bose as "faults" not "future, lile-to-have requests".

This discussion is called

T4S/T8S ToneMatch Mixers Feature Requests

and this is the place to write about things you would like to see changed (including bugs) in the T4S and T8S mixers.



I have also identified a more serious one, which, in my opinion merits urgent action. (See below)

This is my second time round with the T4s, having previously moved it on due to previous faults (some now fixed).  I have also been twice round with the Bose T8s and gave up on this because of outstanding problems with this unit.

I am a long term Bose user, owning two (2) Bose L1 Model IIs, three (3) Bose T1s and two (2) Bose B1s.

Thank you. Despite all the similarities, the T4S and T8S are different from the T1.  Some of the behaviors from the T1 were not carried forward to the new models. Some T1 owners have been disappointed when they expected the new models to behave the same way.  In this respect, the new mixers may suffer by comparison, but for people who did not have experience with the T1, it seems not to have been an issue.



-----------------------------------------

Updated "Faults List" follows:

------------------------------------------------------------

17 October 2019 0- Faults List

Delay

Delay Time by default is: Digital 150 ms 30% 30%; Analog 275 ms 30% 30%; Tape 350 ms 30% 30% as per manual. 

Thanks for spotting this.



Scenario: I set up three (3) delay settings: one for Digital, one for Analog and one for Tape.  All with different settings. However, if I then change any selection, say from Tape back to Digital, I find that ALL the settings have changed to 350 ms 20% 20% regardless of what I set previously.

This is a major error and should be fixed asap.

(The T1 always retained all the settings I se

Thank you for the request. 



16 October 2019

Reverb Type

Reverb Time is shown as a percentage.  I know this has been commented on before but time units are measured in seconds (minutes, hours, etc.) and not “percentages”.  This needs to changed.

Bose is using a different approach and algorithm for the Reverb settings in the T4S/T8S. <-- Please follow the link for more information.

I understand why you might prefer the time units in seconds as they were in the T1. The T4S/T8S use a different reverb engine, and the time is expressed as a percentage of the time range for each reverb type.



(Worth noting that Delay Time is shown as seconds which is what I would expect.)

I understand. 



Compressors

T4s Compressors Comp1, Comp2 and Comp3 all show 0dB by default on the unit but manual shows 3dB, 5dB, 8dB respectively as the default position. (T1 has defaults as 3dB, 5db and 8dB as the respective defaults.) This needs fixed.

Thanks for spotting this.



ZEQ

When turning Low, Mid and High from 0.00dB to a negative value and then returning them back to zero, display shows -0.00db (i.e. with a negative sign at the front).  Whilst this isn’t a big issue, it’s still a programming error and should be fixed.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for drawing this to our attention.

Bose doesn't comment on changes under development, so I can't say when or if there will be changes.  I'm sorry.



ST

47

The majority (excepting the Reverb change) of what I have highlighted should have been caught by quality control before formal release of the T4s unit. I do realise and accept that some things will always slip through the net.

However, whilst I can live with most of the issues I'm having,  the "Delay Settings Changing by itself" issue is a real and immediate problem.  This is a fault and not a request for a "like to have". This needs addressing urgently.  I've spent almost £500 on a unit that I'm wary of using live until this is resolved.

Changes / updates required (i.e. bugs) to make the unit function as it should must take priority over "like to have" changes / updates requested.

IMO, bugs should have a separate thread from requests otherwise they will just get lost amongst the myriad of other requests.

Jim S.

 

48

Hi Jim S,

jimboblueice posted:

The majority (excepting the Reverb change) of what I have highlighted should have been caught by quality control before formal release of the T4s unit. I do realise and accept that some things will always slip through the net.

However, whilst I can live with most of the issues I'm having,  the "Delay Settings Changing by itself" issue is a real and immediate problem.  This is a fault and not a request for a "like to have". This needs addressing urgently.  I've spent almost £500 on a unit that I'm wary of using live until this is resolved.

The Delay Settings do not change by themselves. They only change if you go into the Delay settings and switch the Delay Type.

When you turn the Rotary Selector to Delay, the current settings are displayed. Looking at the current settings does not trigger a change.

To change (or lose those settings) you have to turn the Type knob (e.g., from Digital to Analog).  As you observed, when you change the delay type, the default values for the that type are loaded. 

I found this disconcerting when I noticed it and I was disappointed that the behavior was different than it was in the T1. In practice - it has not been a problem once I understood I had to take a deliberate action to change things.

Suggestion: Save settings you like as a Scene before experimenting. Then it's quick and easy to get back to a previous known state.



Changes / updates required (i.e. bugs) to make the unit function as it should must take priority over "like to have" changes / updates requested.

IMO, bugs should have a separate thread from requests otherwise they will just get lost amongst the myriad of other requests.

Jim S.

Bose is monitoring this discussion thread and they assess the priority of each request. 

ST

49

Let me explain the issue that I am having.

Firstly, I installed the latest firmware 1.1.4 and reset (rebooted) the mixer as per Bose instructions.

I then set up a vocal setting: selected preset OM5 and Delay Type "Digital", setting up a delay that I liked. I then turned the Delay Type Selection knob to try out an "Analog" setting and did likewise. So far so good.

I then went to try an A-B test of the "Digital" and "Analog" delays that I set up.

However, when I re-selected the "Digital" option my settings had not been saved but were now replaced with: Time 350ms; Feedback 20%; and Mix 20%.  Then reselecting "Analog" showed that my settings had also been lost and also replaced with: Time 350ms; Feedback 20%; and Mix 20%.

Selecting "Tape" also displayed the same Time 350ms; Feedback 20%; and Mix 20% settings and I hadn't changed anything there.

In summary, if I don't move the selection knob, my settings are saved but, if I do move the knob, all the settings are lost and replaced with something else.

This problem is not restricted to the "Delay Parameters".

I can't believe that this is the way this unit is meant to work.  The T1 Tonematch (I have three) works perfectly in this regard and always saves whatever settings I make.

Now either I have got a faulty unit or there are bugs in the firmware programming.

I don't mean this to sound like a rant.  I am a long term and avid Bose user but I am far from enamoured with this T4s as it currently operates.

If the above is how this unit is meant to work, i.e. make your settings and never move any knobs thereafter, then I can't see me keeping this unit.

Jim S.

 

50

Hi Jim S.

jimboblueice posted:

Let me explain the issue that I am having.

Firstly, I installed the latest firmware 1.1.4 and reset (rebooted) the mixer as per Bose instructions.

I then set up a vocal setting: selected preset OM5 and Delay Type "Digital", setting up a delay that I liked. I then turned the Delay Type Selection knob to try out an "Analog" setting and did likewise. So far so good.

I then went to try an A-B test of the "Digital" and "Analog" delays that I set up.

However, when I re-selected the "Digital" option my settings had not been saved but were now replaced with: Time 350ms; Feedback 20%; and Mix 20%.  Then reselecting "Analog" showed that my settings had also been lost and also replaced with: Time 350ms; Feedback 20%; and Mix 20%.

Selecting "Tape" also displayed the same Time 350ms; Feedback 20%; and Mix 20% settings and I hadn't changed anything there.

Thanks for your detailed description.  I am aware of these behaviors and investigated the intent when Bose introduced the T4S and T8S.



In summary, if I don't move the selection knob, my settings are saved but, if I do move the knob, all the settings are lost and replaced with something else.

When you move to a different effect type, the default values for that type are loaded.



This problem is not restricted to the "Delay Parameters".

I can't believe that this is the way this unit is meant to work.  The T1 Tonematch (I have three) works perfectly in this regard and always saves whatever settings I make.

The engineering intent for features where you have multiple types of the same DSP function (e.g.,  Delay, Mod, Reverb) is:  when you switch from one type to another, the default values for the new type are loaded. 

I understand this is not as convenient as the T1 was when doing direct A-B testing. To compare different settings:

  • Save the current settings as Scene "A"
  • Make the change(s) to your settings
    • If you like the new result or want to compare it to Scene "A" save the current settings as Scene "B"
  • Then switch back and forth between the Scenes


Now either I have got a faulty unit or there are bugs in the firmware programming.

This is different from the way the T1 operates, and if you preferred the T1 design, the T4S/T8S approach would look like a fault or a bug. 

I don't mean this to sound like a rant.  I am a long term and avid Bose user but I am far from enamoured with this T4s as it currently operates.

If the above is how this unit is meant to work, i.e. make your settings and never move any knobs thereafter,

You can always move the knobs, however doing A-B testing involves a different approach. You have to save your settings if you want to change something and switch back and forth. I have other non-Bose devices around here that operate the same way.  Some of those devices have an undo function; others do not.

then I can't see me keeping this unit.

Jim S.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

Bose is following the discussion here, and they have heard comments about this from customers through different channels. It's on the radar, but I can't tell you if this will be changed. Bose doesn't talk about product changes that may or may not be in development. 

Sincerely,

ST

51

Hi, many thanks for the response.

I get the “save Scene A / Save Scene B” scenario and there is a certain logic in returning to “factory settings” when the “selector knob” is turned or changed.

Though, personally, I believe that the “T1 Implementation” in this area (which saves all changes) is far more elegant and puts Bose ahead of competitors’ digital offerings in this area.

Bose should consider incorporating the “T1 Implementation” into their T4 and T8 offerings.

=============================

Going back to the issue I was describing, I’ve had a further look at what is happening.

The above table shows the “Delay Factory Settings” from the T4s.

When I “lose” any changes I make, all the types revert to “Mix 20%; Time 350ms; Feedback 20%”, i.e. “digital” and “analog” don’t have their default own particular Factory Settings  returned but inherit those closer to “tape” as above. 

It’s worth noting that “tape” on the unit defaults to “Mix 20%; Time 350ms; Feedback 20%” as well and not “Mix 30%; Time 350ms; Feedback 30%” as in the table above.  This could, of course, be a wrong definition in the manual.

So the problem is not as extreme as I thought but still not totally in line with “restoring factory settings”.

Incidently, the  “compressors 1, 2 and 3” also don’t return to the factory settings as defined in the manual (see below).

 

They all reset back to a “gain” of 0dB: effectively making them all the same. So again, not completely returning to "factory settings".

======================================

In summary, still trying to love my T4s but still in love with my T1s!  LOL

Thanks to everyone on the forum who responded.

Kind regards,

Jim S.

52

Hi Jim,

Thanks for sticking with the conversation. I noticed some other places where the T4S/T8S default values don't match the owner's guide table of factory settings. I'll see what I can find out and I'll start a new topic or write an article about the differences when I know more.

ST

53

Is there anywhere, where the T4s Default Presets are listed and can be downloaded?  (Only found references to the T1 Presets and that the T4s s the same.)

Jim S.

54

Hi Jim,

I was just documenting this.

Please see T4S/T8S Factory Settings for a clearer image.

ST

55

I would like to be able to save my FX settings on more than just one effect per scene. eg, I may use a chorus on one song, a tremolo on another, a phaser on another, etc. As it is now, if I dial in a chorus setting, then switch to flanger, the chorus is reset back to defaults when I select it again. I understand and totally accept the fact that you can't use say a flanger and a tremolo at the same time, but I would love to set all of these individually and save them with my scene, bypassing them manually as needed during my gig. I'm new, btw, but so far I'm fairly fascinated by the T4S. 

56

Can you just save each effect as a different SCENE?  Then you just have to swap scenes to get the desired effect? 

Read Here:    http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/inde...h®_Mixer#Scenes

57

Yes I can save each FX setting as a different scene, but I was hoping to reserve those scenes for the different venues I play. I'll live with it for the time being. I know nothing about what goes into engineering a device like this, but it seems quite possible to implement the ability to save all the FX parameters on a per-scene basis. Hopefully in the future! Thanks for the suggestion!

58

Personally I’d rather see a future iteration of the TXX mixers extended in physical size by 30% and a proper FX section added where we the users can tweak any effect and mixture of effect and save them to a dozen saved buttons on the front of the unit.

only then to delve into a menu based effect adjustment if / when needed.

These would also be independent of scenes so you don’t lose settings just by changing scenes.

If producing this level of excellence is too prohibitive work a deal with a stomp box producer and incorporate something like a VE-20, but enhance it with the saved selection of push buttons as above.

59

Oh man, one of the main reasons I have this is because of the small size. I was just fed up with hauling a 10-channel mixer and a stand to put it on. I'm a solo acoustic performer, and when I was all set up it looked like a band was playing. Lol. This mixer has really helped me shave off some excess fat to carry. Mounts on a tray attached to my mic stand, 24-inch mic cord, short cord from pedal board to mixer. It's a big change. I'm using my T4 for the first time here in a few hours, but I've been using a friends' T1 and it's been wonderful. 

60
edkilp posted:

Yes I can save each FX setting as a different scene, but I was hoping to reserve those scenes for the different venues I play. I'll live with it for the time being. I know nothing about what goes into engineering a device like this, but it seems quite possible to implement the ability to save all the FX parameters on a per-scene basis. Hopefully in the future! Thanks for the suggestion!

This brings up a question I've asked before.   When Bose made the T4/8, why didn't they put enough memory in to allow unlimited scenes to be saved.   Memory is very inexpensive and the coding required to make the change should be minimal.  They could have even given us a slot for an SD memory card.   I guess someone will ask why you need that many scenes.  IMO, why not?