I’ve been a Bose Classic L1 user since December of 2004. I use 2 B1’s a T1. I’ve never ever had a challenge with feedback when working as a solo performer, but have encountered a few challenges when adding other components.
I play a Michael Rowan Custom Del Rio Piezo Acoustic guitar through a Roland GR-20 synth, and sing through a Neumann KMS105 mic, utilizing a Digitech Vocalist Live2.
Here’s where the problems begin. I play with a live drummer (stand-up cocktail drum set)at small venues (indoors and outdoors). We mike the bass drum with an SM-57 Shure, as well as the drummer’s vocals with a Beta 58.
On occassion; we have a special guest singer and feedback tends to make an appearance as well. I just cannot seem to get enough volume before feedback, utilizing an Audix OM-5.
Am I perhaps asking too much from the L1 system? I appreciate any help. Thank you!
My first suspicion, as you have sit in guests, is that they aren’t used to an L1 and don’t eat-the-mic.
That is the most common problem I have with those new (and not so new) to the system.
Are you giving them some pre-show training on that?
And if you are, do they follow your instruction?
I find that very often, they do not. Most are used to just hearing themselves through a wedge, and when they hear themselves loud and clear through the L1, they back off…and feedback ensues.
There is not much you can do when faced with that issue, other than to get them further away from the speaker tower.
(or turn DOWN their mic, forcing them in closer to it)
Three persons should easily share a single L1, I don’t think you need another in this case.
Although, two would certainly make your monitoring better, spacially.
Still, the performers need to use close mic techniques, and sing like they mean it!
I often use two systems for 5pc bands, and all is fine when the singers do it right.
Hi 7777,
Drumr Pete beat me to it.
I agree with Drumr completely - having seen this many times. People unaccustomed to hearing themselves through an L1® may back off the microphone. If you set the gain based on that behaviour, you will get feedback.
The L1® can certainly handle more than one microphone but you have to be really careful about microphone technique. Note: There IS an issue with adding microphones to any system… you tend to lower your gain-before-feedback. see quoted notes below.
Wiki article: Feedback
quote:
High quality audio becomes progressively more difficult to achieve as the number of open microphones increases. All audio systems face the same problems whenever multiple open microphones are needed. These problems are:
* Build-up of background noise and reverberation
* Reduced gain before feedback
* Comb filtering
All of the problems above can plague boardrooms, city council chambers, conference centers, churches, teleconferencing rooms, talk shows, anywhere multiple microphones are used. Since audio quality rapidly deteriorates as the number of open microphones increases, the solution is to keep the minimum number of microphones open that will handle the audio.
The article goes on to explain why you should buy a particular product.
Shure - Why Use Shure Automatic Mixers
BTW…about your drummer.
When I’m at my kit, I have difficulty hearing myself if my Classic is on my left side.
It needs to be on my right and in a specific position for me to hear it…whatever that is, according to the room.
Your drummer might be having the same issue, in that he can’t hear himself well, and is singing more timidly since he can’t. You might try adjusting his position in relation to the tower.
Try having him play his kit angled in, facing somewhat towards you, not the audience, this will get his ear in line with the L1. That is how I do it when the L1 has to be to my left.
I appreciate you all chiming in here. I was thinking every time you add something extra to the system; there’s more opportunity for feedback.
So let’s assume for a moment that the guest are using proper technique; would an addition B1 help the equation any?
Hi 7777,
Adding another B1 requires that you get a PackLite to power it. If you are going to get 1 B1 you may as well get two in order to hear an appreciable difference.
PackLite® Extended Bass Package
(PackLite® amp two B1 Bass Modules)
BUT
If your problem is feedback from the microphones, I don’t think that adding B1s is going to help.
quote:Originally posted by 7777:
I appreciate you all chiming in here. I was thinking every time you add something extra to the system; there’s more opportunity for feedback.
So let’s assume for a moment that the guest are using proper technique; would an addition B1 help the equation any?
anyone consider a good feedback destroyer?
Sabine has a single inline product for single mic… Peavey has Feedback Ferret. Behringer has SHARK… and DBX i believe… sometimes its a very narrow band that feeds… sometimes 1/60th of an octave… graphics dont usually get that accurate between bands even if its 31 band 1/2 octave.
I do believe the man that eliminates feedback will be a rich man indeed.
IMO, two things would make the greatest impact of getting the mic as loud as possible.
1. Get another mic. The OM5 is nice, but if you want the best gain before feedback and sound, IMO, it aint it. I have one, and to me it is very bland sounding all around.
Two mics I’ve tried that sound better and can get louder are the sennhieser 945e & the EV/ND976 (think thats the number) The EV is SUPER loud and you have to try to make it feedback, if you use it and set it up right. I never have a problem getting as loud as want.
2. Ditch the effects processor. With EVERY single sound system I’ve ever sang through, vocals make feeding back happen a lot sooner. Or at the very least have a setting where you can turn it off, when you add a lot of things in the system and need to get loud.
IME the smaller the room the more vocal effects will cause feedback nightmares.
An EQ cut can’t account for what frequencies are bad for the room AND the change from patch to patch for vocal effects. Change and effect and your frequency curve will change, often signnificantly.
This is especially true if you are using heavy choruses or a harmonizer, a harmonizer effectively doubles your voice and puts it at another pitch, so it’s like two or three of you going through the L1.
It may also just be you are overdoing the effects. Make a recording at practice and do a judgment call. A little goes a long way, make sure you aren’t trying to, “fix,” your voice with effects. I hear poor singers do this all the time and they aren’t fooling anyone. It just sounds like a poor singer with lots of effects.
IMO, in indoor venues effects aren’t needed and more often than not just make the vocal sound worse. I turn up loud enough where I get at least small amount of natural reveration and it sounds great.
O ya, forgot to mention. The drummers beta 58 is probably a big cause of it too.
IME they are sqealers and not suited for playing live AND loud.
The more mics you put in the more important it is that they are all mics that have the most superior gain before feedback.
Hey Ya’ll,
I sure do appreciate your comments and suggestions. I’m going to try them all.
Best Regards!
quote:We mike the bass drum with an SM-57 Shure...
Hi 7777,
The 57 is one of those mics that will feedback easily.
No doubt it is positioned *outside* of the kick drum in your case, a cocktail drum.
So it will be more prone to feeding back, especially if it is close to a B1.
Is there feedback in that lower frequency range as well as the higher, vocal range?
That might be something to look at.
If it be the case, your T1 Tonematch using the kick gate will knock that feedback dead, and give you much more gain (...like "full blast") as well.
EDIT...
I just realized that the snare (or floor tom) on top of the cocktail drum, will also trigger the kick gate, so that might just not be a great idea. But still worth a look maybe.
Drumr,
Everything that has been said about the microphones is in line with my thinking as well. You all have helped to solidify my speculations about where the problems are originating and what to do about them.
I’m going to look into an Audix D6 kick drum mic, as well as a couple of Seinheiser 945e’s or EV/ND967’s for vocals.
Thank you!
I have an audix set I use to mic our drummer.
We have a hybrid system now, as he’s decided to go to acoustic drums.
What we do is trigger his toms and kick through an electric drum head, and mic his snare and high hat with audix drum mics. Those two mics are in the same family as the d6 and havn’t given us any problems. Sounded really good when I recorded another friends drums on a side project.
www.myspace.com/fraydmusic The last song, “Hate You,” is recorded using the audix mics. I did eq it but most of the sound was his drums.
When we play, Our drummer sits right to the side of the L1 and I’m in front of him with my EV mic blasting, no hint of feedback.
I just ordered an EV ND967 mic for vocals and Shure Beta 52A for the bass drum.
I’m hoping that this will go a long way toward reducing my feedback challenges.
Thanks for the help.
The EV is my favorite mic ever. I personally just use it straight in with no effects and no preset on my L1. Love the sound reproduction quality and crispness of it.
Keep in mind when you get it, you have to be right up on it. Your lips should be touching the screen at all times as the mic rejects a lot as you go away from it.
I can now happily report that my purchase of the EV ND967 (vocal mic), as well as the Shure Beta 52A (kick drum mic) has literally erased our feedback challenges.
Presently; I personally use a Neumann KMS105 and will continue using it, but I’ve got to suggest that the EV ND967 may be the most optimum microphone to use with an L1 system (for what it’s worth).
Thanks to all!
Hi 7777
Thanks for the update.
I’m sure others will benefit from reading the discussion and the outcome.
Enjoy your new microphone.
quote:Originally posted by 7777:
I can now happily report that my purchase of the EV ND967 (vocal mic), as well as the Shure Beta 52A (kick drum mic) has literally erased our feedback challenges.
Presently; I personally use a Neumann KMS105 and will continue using it, but I've got to suggest that the EV ND967 may be the most optimum microphone to use with an L1 system (for what it's worth).
Thanks to all!
Great to hear. The right tool for the job I guess.
I'm still surprised at the vocal volume I can get out of the EV/L1 combination.
What having a lot of vocal headroom allows me to do is start with my mic turned up super loud, so that I can relax while my voice warms up and blood starts flowing.
Then once my voice is opened up and I'm naturally louder, but still vocally relaxed, I can turn it down if it's too much.