New discussion for posts related to comparisons between the Model 1S and the HK Elements.
Posts in this discussion thread have been consolidated here from various other threads so they are easily seen in one place.
Edit:
Please note that since the focus of this discussion has turned to the HK Elements, this is now outside the Terms of Service (linked from the bottom of every page in this message board).
This discussion is now closed.
I just bought the 1S with the B2 and was very disappointed. I don’t mean to rain on Bose’s parade with the launch of a new product, but I feel it’s only fair to share my personal experience of the 1S so fellow readers get a fair and unbiased opinion. I will admit that I did not do a software update so the B2 works more efficiently, but that wasn’t the problem at all. It had a decent amount of bass. Where it fell short was the tower. The speakers in the tower didn’t have nearly the power, volume or clarity I was expecting. The system did a lot of “self compression” every time I tried to turn it up and the speakers sounded very muffled and flat. I recently switched to the HK Elements system a few months ago so I thought it was only fair to set the two systems side by side. Even though the HK only has 8 speakers in the tower vs. the 12 on the 1S, it was still a night a day difference. I won’t elaborate any further because the last time I talked about HK, Bose shut down my post. I’m not affiliated with HK in any shape or form. I’m simply a consumer who’s always on the look out for the best. I would like to end my review on a positive note by saying that I still own a Compact (for really small gigs) and I still use a T1 with the HK system. I’m still a Bose fan but the 1S didn’t measure up to what I was expecting. There’s no doubt in my mind that if Bose purchased an HK system, brought it back to their lab and set it up next to a Model 2, there jaws would be on the floor.
Hi Kova,
First thanks for buying the Bose L1 Model 1S and B2 bass module! We believe, these new products provide best in class tonal balance, coverage and portability for audiences up to 300. And the B2 provides our most flexible, highest output bass solution for both the L1 Model 1S and Model II systems. What would be helpful to know is the position of the B2 bass module switch and this can effect the overall system EQ. I would recomend that you try the different B2 switch positions to see if that improves your situation.
It’s hard to react to the A/B since I don’t have a sense of the size of room you or your audio sources. I would encourage you to take the system out and try it in a live “real world” situation and then see how you feel. Also, please make sure you are not clipping the input as this could contribute to the “compression” you are experiancing. I want to help you get the most out of your Model 1S and B2 and your first experiance sounds like something is definitly not right.
One last detail, the Model 1S does not require a firmware update. This only applies to the L1 Model II system.
Please take the system out and feel free to report back on this thread or PM me.
Thanks,
Craig
Hi Craig,
First let me to say how much I appreciate you allowing me to voice my opinion openly. Secondly, I want you and the people at Bose to know that I have the utmost respect for you and your company. You have pioneered wonderful things that have allowed others to create from your ideas.
Being a Bose user (and fan) for over 5 years, I’m confident that the way I hooked up the 1S is correct. I’m a former owner of the Model 2 and used it for several hundred gigs. There’s no doubt in my mind that I assembled the 1S correctly. Yes, I did try the B2 with all 3 settings, but it didn’t make any difference with the results I was getting. I turned it on and off several times and checked all the connection points to make sure I didn’t overlook anything. I spent a good hour testing it against my HK. I have no desire to throw Bose under the bus, but the results were undeniable. The 1S just didn’t measure up.
My neighbor even came over to listen as well (not a musician) and said… “not only is it not nearly as loud, but it sounds like someone put a pillow in front of the Bose speakers compared to how clear your HK sounds.”
By the way, I wasn’t trying to be funny when I said the engineers at Bose should get their hands on an HK to “hear” what they’ve accomplished. You really need to do that if you haven’t done so already.
Up until recently, Bose has been able to monopolize the industry by being the only choice when someone walks into Guitar Center looking for a line array system. That just changed 3 months ago and now HK is also available at Guitar Center. Before, you had to go to an “high end” shop to get HK. Those days are gone and now HK is available at one of the biggest music retailers in the country and will be sitting on the floor next to the L1. If that doesn’t worry Bose, it should.
quote:Originally posted by Craig-at-Bose:
Hi Kova,
First thanks for buying the Bose L1 Model 1S and B2 bass module! We believe, these new products provide best in class tonal balance, coverage and portability for audiences up to 300. And the B2 provides our most flexible, highest output bass solution for both the L1 Model 1S and Model II systems. What would be helpful to know is the position of the B2 bass module switch and this can effect the overall system EQ. I would recomend that you try the different B2 switch positions to see if that improves your situation.
It’s hard to react to the A/B since I don’t have a sense of the size of room you or your audio sources. I would encourage you to take the system out and try it in a live “real world” situation and then see how you feel. Also, please make sure you are not clipping the input as this could contribute to the “compression” you are experiancing. I want to help you get the most out of your Model 1S and B2 and your first experiance sounds like something is definitly not right.
One last detail, the Model 1S does not require a firmware update. This only applies to the L1 Model II system.
Please take the system out and feel free to report back on this thread or PM me.
Thanks,
Craig
Something sounds weird Kova. I’ve never heard any Bose system sound like there’s a pillow over the speakers, unless as Craig suggested, inputs are being overdriven and the auto compression kicks in. That’s not a matter of being too loud just that the gain staging is a little off.
While I appreciate you have experience both in basic live sound and with the actual Bose systems, I also have plenty of experience. I’ve been playing in bands since I was 14 and I’m now 51. Despite all that experience, there are still times when I overlook something here or there. I’m not immune to it, I don’t think anybody is.
ST has A/B’d the L1S with his Model II I think he would have reported to us if the 1S sounded like it had a blanket over it compared to a Model II.
I own a model II so I know how clear the sound is, I can’t believe that there would be a significant change other than over all volume between the 2 and the 1S.
So it leaves me wondering if either, there is something physically wrong or defective in the system you bought or if there is just something that you are overlooking.
Sorry, I just can’t put any faith in a review that describes the sound from any Bose L1 system as having a pillow in front of it. All a review like tells me is something is off.
Is there a 1S set up in the store you bought it from? If so I would take my sound source there and try it through the set up in the store to see if you notice a difference. In the interim I am going to endeavour to get out and hear a 1S for myself, who knows, maybe Bose has lost their minds and created a system that sounds muffled on purpose. It just seems to me to be a complete reversal of what they have achieved so far.
Kova, a couple of points:
(1) You suggest in your first post that Bose should be worried if they were to hear an HK system next to a Model 2. HK’s recommended configuration for an audience of 500 (ie the equivalent of Model 2) consists of two line arrays and two woofers at 41 lbs each. Are you sure Bose should be worried?
(2) How is being the first to design a line array a “monopoly”? If Bose used unethical business practices to put other array makers out of business, I could see your point. But the subsequent creation of HK (or Fishman) array systems doesn’t look like the “end of a monopoly”, but simply other companies trying their hand at it.
One thing too. I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet. The Bose systems can be placed behind the performer and are very resistant to feedback…not requiring floor monitors.
Yes, the weight of other systems compared to the Bose is a very important factor as well.
Hi Kova,
I’m just wondering. When you set up the systems for comparison did you use the same or different EQ on the T1. Different companies might have very different signal processing built in the powerstands. If you did not optimize EQ for each system seperately that could explain some difference.
O…
Another thing, probably not very scientific but I would notice how my Mackie SR450’s sounded great and because of that I held off buying Bose for a long time.
What finally convinced me was…I finally took a chance and bought a couple of L1/II’s anyway because my competitors were using them and sounding great…I had to try them out on stage at a gig.
The difference was very dramatic in that the coverage, power, bass response and prevention of feedback was so very much more superior.
If I were to compare the two brands side by side and compared them standing a few feet away playing recorded music from them…I’d probably not notice much difference. The thing that would stand out mostly would probably be the power. Most big boxes these days have lots of power.
Where Bose beats everyone else is that they sound great, great coverage, low feedback, low weight, 40hz bass response, good power, easy to pack up etc, and integrated sound…no added monitors or additional things needed.
So there are too many users IMO that are happy with their Bose equipment to even consider a bad comparison…which can be possible if done as I described. Again, not scientific but probably real world.
I think a point that needs to be raised here is the pitfall one may encounter when comparing two imperfect devices with one another.
I have A-B compared at least a hundred times, two or more speakers one to the other. One that stands out was the head-to-head comparison of the L1 Model I Classic to some very high-priced European studio monitor systems at The Banff Center in Banff, Alberta (known world-wide for their music and audio recording programs).
The L1 ultimately was chosen by a group of professors and students as the more “natural” sounding system only AFTER I suggested they compare both systems to a third sound, and that was what they thought a live group of musicians would sound like if they were in the studio with us. That was much easier for them than, as I suggested, comparing one speaker against another.
My point here is that if one system is overly bright or even a touch louder than the other, the second system can sound “muffled”.
My personal experience with my Model 1S demos is that this system in a church sanctuary sounds so close to a Model II at a distance that I would be hard pressed to ask for the extra money to upgrade to a II.
Over the years I have used many different speakers from a wide variety of companies, Custom, Fender, Shure, Peavey, Yamaha, EV, JBL, Bose, and others. I think that over the years the equipment improved as did my ability to utilize it to my liking. What didn’t change much, until the L1 system, is the way I sounded.
The L1 changed everything as far as I’m concerned, and I was already using Bose speakers when the L1 came out. Once I accepted that the starting point with ToneMatch technology was a real and natural sound, and I got used to that, I didn’t/wouldn’t want to change.
I feel that the L1 experience has made me, not only a better performer but, a better sound man. Clarity is not something that can only be had with a Bose line array, it just sets a standard that if one likes and gets used to, they could very well find it with any number of other speakers from different makers. By the same token, If one wants to upset the natural balance and exaggerate their sound they can do that with the Bose equipment as easy as any other speaker.
I wish that we could all see and hear (again) the talk that Dr. Bose gave at the conference we had in Ashland Mass. The Bose corp. puts a lot of weight on the human perception when it comes to designing sound equipment, and that is what has set them apart from other companies over the years. Other companies may have different motivation for their development and marketing ideas. I’m not here to say one is better than another, it all depends on what you want and satifying your audience. All any company can do is make what they believe in and hope their marketing effort reaches enough of like minded folks to keep the ball rolling.
O…
In HK ads I have read, the word RAW! is thrown around a lot.
Maybe that tone, in comparison to the smoother sound of the Model II and 1S does leave the Bose sounding muffled.
It’s probably just a matter of “what type of music do you play?”.
I’d think for certain gigs, a smoother, softer sound would be appreciated.
For loud bars, maybe an HK is more suited.
Hi Kova,
Based on what I am hearing, it sounds like you might have a faulty system. Acoustically, the new L1 Model 1S should sound very similar to the Model II. It just doesn’t play as loud.
Neither system should sound muffled like there is a pillow in front of it.
I would recomend that you call Bose customer service and get your unit swapped out.
Craig
I am both a Bose L1 Model 2 owner and a HK Lucus 1000 owner (a system that was never available in the US). In fact I have two of each.
I was very excited when I read about the HK Elements System because it was more powerful than the Bose L1 for about the same price. I believe it was 3600 Watts compared to 2000 Watts for the L1 Model 2 with 8 B1’s. So when a local distributer said we could come to their shop and try out the system, I immediately asked if we could bring in a L1 to do a A/B. I invited the entire Atlanta DJ indutry (about 100 in my e-mail list) to attend. Only about 8 of us showed up.
I have never been more disappointed than I was that day, because I had been telling people for a few months, that they could purchase the Elements system for the same price as a L1 system, but have a much higher output. There was just no comparison, the volume and quality from the L1 was just superior. At first I thought the engineer was making some mistake in the setup. We tried a few variations to the input to try and make the elements louder. It just could not be done.
Note here that I actually wanted the HK to win because the Bass cabinets were bigger and would produce the bass I have wanted for the L1.
While Guitar Center is carrying HK products, Elements is not one of those.
Korg is the USA distributor, and I have to believe that they have been disapointed in the sales volume.
I will be picking up two B2’s tomorrow if GC still has them in stock.
Yes, I agree that there could be that one in a million chance that the 1S I bought is defective, but instincts tell me it wasn’t. The reason I feel that way is because my ears had the same reaction when I compared the Model 2 to the HK system I now own. It was an obvious and immediate difference. The 1S I purchased came from Guitar Center and it was new in a sealed box.
quote:Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
Something sounds weird Kova. I’ve never heard any Bose system sound like there’s a pillow over the speakers, unless as Craig suggested, inputs are being overdriven and the auto compression kicks in. That’s not a matter of being too loud just that the gain staging is a little off.
While I appreciate you have experience both in basic live sound and with the actual Bose systems, I also have plenty of experience. I’ve been playing in bands since I was 14 and I’m now 51. Despite all that experience, there are still times when I overlook something here or there. I’m not immune to it, I don’t think anybody is.
ST has A/B’d the L1S with his Model II I think he would have reported to us if the 1S sounded like it had a blanket over it compared to a Model II.
I own a model II so I know how clear the sound is, I can’t believe that there would be a significant change other than over all volume between the 2 and the 1S.
So it leaves me wondering if either, there is something physically wrong or defective in the system you bought or if there is just something that you are overlooking.
Sorry, I just can’t put any faith in a review that describes the sound from any Bose L1 system as having a pillow in front of it. All a review like tells me is something is off.
Is there a 1S set up in the store you bought it from? If so I would take my sound source there and try it through the set up in the store to see if you notice a difference. In the interim I am going to endeavour to get out and hear a 1S for myself, who knows, maybe Bose has lost their minds and created a system that sounds muffled on purpose. It just seems to me to be a complete reversal of what they have achieved so far.
Hi Joe,
I can testify that HK grossly undersells what they’re systems are capable of. They may claim (honestly haven’t read this anywhere) that it requires (2) HK’s to keep up with (1) Model 2, but nothing could be further from the truth. From my longterm, invested experience in both products, the results I got were the opposite. But please don’t take my word for it. Go out and listen to an HK system and come to your own conclusions.
When I said that Bose has monopolized the industry, I didn’t say it’s because they invented the L1. My point was that they are the center of attention when you walk into the pro audio department of Guitar Center and you’re looking for a line array system. Ever since the Fishman came out, it hasn’t been on the floor in over 2 years at my local GC. It’s not on display anymore. I don’t even like the Fishman system at all, but I will defend it’s right to be on the sales floor so it has a fighting chance and gives the consumer “choice”. HK is brand new to Guitar Center so it remains to be seen how long it will take to see a demo on the floor and will the sales people be educated on it or will it be ignored and collect dust? Another new comer is Harbinger (GC’s product) and even though I don’t think it’s in the same league as Bose, I’m glad to see it’s out there.
My overall point is that Bose has been the “900 pound Gorilla” in the line array world and I’m glad to see more competition so we all have more choice.
quote:Originally posted by Jukebox Joe:
Kova, a couple of points:
(1) You suggest in your first post that Bose should be worried if they were to hear an HK system next to a Model 2. HK’s recommended configuration for an audience of 500 (ie the equivalent of Model 2) consists of two line arrays and two woofers at 41 lbs each. Are you sure Bose should be worried?
(2) How is being the first to design a line array a “monopoly”? If Bose used unethical business practices to put other array makers out of business, I could see your point. But the subsequent creation of HK (or Fishman) array systems doesn’t look like the “end of a monopoly”, but simply other companies trying their hand at it.
Hi O,
To give a fair and unbiased test, I started out with the EQ settings and all other effects on the T1 “flat” or “off”. As the comparison continued, I tried all kinds of EQ and compression settings to give the 1S a fighting chance while leaving the HK “flat”. Didn’t make any difference. These two systems are apples and oranges and it wasn’t even a fair comparison. It was like putting a Lexus up against a Porsche. However, from a price point comparison, it was a very fair test. The HK gives far more bang for your buck.
quote:Originally posted by Oldghm:
Hi Kova,
I’m just wondering. When you set up the systems for comparison did you use the same or different EQ on the T1. Different companies might have very different signal processing built in the powerstands. If you did not optimize EQ for each system seperately that could explain some difference.
O…
Kova, plug in an audience of 500 on their website, and the configurator comes up with two line arrays to get the job done.
(So everyone knows, Kova and I are having a terrific friendly exchange of views through PM. We have the same passion for sound, but different systems to suit our needs).
The Bose and the HK were designed for two different reasons. Kova is using the HK as if it were a Bose (and to his ears with better results, so who can fault him for this?). The raw power that the HK is giving him is not unlike what I described as the Model 1’s advantage over the Model 2: better volume, less feedback, and greater punch, due clearly to several factors: the choice of crossover frequency, the non-articulated line array, and the raw wattage (ie, heavier amp).
But this is where the Model 2 (and though I have not heard it, the 1S by extension), trade something off for that raw power, which is smoother and clearer tone and unparalleled dispersion of sound. While ultimately is was my back that made me go with the lighter weight Model 2 over the Model 1, my ears have gotten used to the Model 2 to the point where my Model 1 sounds a bit TOO raw, opposed to the more polished sound of the Model 2. (I don’t use any effects on either system, BTW. Only the right tonematch with EQ adjustments to suit the venue.)
I don’t think I can fairly contribute much more to this discussion without hearing the HK for myself, but I have not doubt that Bose has anything to “worry” about. If you need more power and umph, get a B2. If you need MORE than a Model 2 with a B2, HK and a host of other PA systems will no doubt take the power to the next level, but not without the tradeoff of heavier amps and a less smooth sound and dispersion that we’ve come to expect from Bose.
It is a tradeoff, and Bose struck gold in that balance (at least for an acoustic guitarist / singer like me). I am open minded enough to give the HK a listen if and when I get my ears on one, and I suspect I’ll hear what I heard with the Model 1: more headroom, less feedback, more umph, but a rawer (versus more polished) sound, and more weight to carry around.
It is my wish that everyone gets as much joy out of their systems as I’ve been with mine, whatever those systems may be.
I think the main thing I’m seeing is that the HK’s were not designed to work like the L1 behind the performer. Even if they were better sounding and more powerful I would not be willing to go back to performing in a mains and monitors situation. HK is going for a better PA speaker, and Bose is going for a system that replaces both PA and monitors. I’m for the Bose solution.
To All,
Since the focus of this discussion has turned to the HK Elements, this is now outside the Terms of Service (linked from the bottom of every page in this message board).
This discussion is now closed.