Hey folks,
I’m a regular over at Talkbass.com, a forum for bassists (electric & upright, with about 50k members).
There’s a pretty interesting discussion going on about the Bose L1 system over there.
There is a bit of misinformation floating around and some misunderstandings about how the system works, what it is really designed to do, and how it is intended to be applied. I don’t want to quote things out-of-context, but there is a lot of negative criticism that I hope 1) you guys can help address and inform and 2) the Bose R&D guys can take into account for future designs and marketing approaches. There are also some suggestions for how the system could be improved, which I hope you guys will address, too!
I want to say that I haven’t yet personally used the Bose systems, but I’m very much in love with the approach and applaud Bose for developing this system - I am working on booking a show where my group will be able to try them out (I’m withholding the details until it’s confirmed, but I’ll definitely let you guys know what I think!), and if they are even 80% as great as you guys say they are, I’ll sell my entire PA in a heartbeat and “go Bose.” 
Keep in mind that 98% of the folks on this part of the forum are electric bass guitarists (and the rest double on upright bass).
Here is the discussion in context:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389861
Thoughts? Opinions? Bose folks want to chime in about the decision to use multiple bass bins instead of a dual or quad-in-one, price-point, etc?
The major complaints I keep seeing are:
1) It’s too expensive
2) It doesn’t reproduce bass well enough
Also, Bose folks, to be frank with you, your marketing is a little frustrating to many, from what I understand - it takes the stance that musicians know very little about running sound, that we want nothing to do with the equipment, that we’re singer-songwriters who just happen to be on a stage in front of people, that all these “wires” and “amplifiers” are just so confusing that we would pay thousands just to make it all go away.
At least in the case of many players on Talkbass and many other instrumentalists I know, in reality, as instrumentalists, we care very much about our tone - our tones are our voices. We spend countless hours tweaking knobs until our tone is perfect, and we learn everything we can about signal processing, crossover frequencies, etc so that we can sound our best. One look at Talkbass will show intense debates about what metallurgical composition of cables are best, what type of tubes respond best to different types of preamps, frequency response differences between cabs with 1x10" 1x12" cone and 2x12" cones, etc - and these are “just” bassists! The “wires” and “amplifiers” aren’t only not-confusing to many band members, but a big part of our sound. There are lots of guys on Talkbass who wouldn’t trade their Ampeg SVT 8x10 cabs (@ 165 pounds!) for anything, just because of the “tone”… I feel bad for them, because they seem to forget that the audience isn’t hearing that tone the way the musicians hear it when it’s mic’ed up in the studio. From what I know of the Bose systems, if these guys just heard a Line6 amp/cab emulation of the SVT/8x10 through the Bose system - from the audience perspective - that they’d dump their 8x10s pretty fast. I know some of these guys are very particular about their tone - and so am I, in the studio - but live, the average audience member can’t tell a vintage Ampeg SVT tube head with an 8x10 from a Line6 emulation of a Mesa-Boogie bass amp into a couple of JBL Eons, lol.
On the other hand, what I’m saying is, by not telling potential buyers the number of drivers in the towers, the distance between the drivers, the diameter of the drivers, the crossover frequencies, etc, and just talking all pretty about ease-of-use, it feels like you are talking down to us or hiding something… Your marketing doesn’t have any frequency charts or much info at all about the L1 system itself - all your marketing literature seems to be focused on why the triple systems are flawed, and how the Bose system is so easy to use that we don’t even need to know the details. None of the literature or videos demonstrate how to hook up an instrument to the system, or walk us through running an entire band through it, or how to hook up the bass bins to the power stands, or how to determine how many bass bins we should use depending on the gig or instrument, or what kinds of cables are included… It even took me some digging just to find out how many watts the system has! I can understand not posting videos demonstrating the system in use, as it seems that hearing it in person is where the magic is, but what I’m saying is, when all the other companies go so far as to include the number of watts in the model numbers and you don’t even address the subject in your marketing videos, it makes us worry that the Bose systems can’t cut it in comparison.
As far as the “too expensive” complaint, again, I personally think that it’s worth it and see how the Bose approach saves money - in our case, it will mean not having to buy a full-size van trailer, not having to hire a sound guy, being able to play more gigs because a gig = a 3-hour commitment instead of an 8-hour one, etc. But when setting your price points, keep in mind that at many smaller shows (clubs, bars, etc), the band doesn’t provide the PA; the venue does. The same goes for the soundguy. So saying that the Bose system is great because it means we no longer need this huge complicated mixer or all these wedge monitors or FOH mains doesn’t mean much to many bands, since they’re not the ones who provide those things in the first place.
The three clubs my band plays the most all have their own PAs, monitors, consoles, and sound guys. All we bring is our backline. My band does own a modest PA (Mackie VLZ-1604 mixer, 2x JBL Eon 15s, 1x JBL Eon 10), but we have used it maybe five times in the last six months… In fact, we’ve considered just selling it and renting equipment if/when we need it. Saying that the Bose system replaces normal backline will turn off tone-freak electric guitarists, some of whom love their vintage amps more than their girlfriends, and a fair number of bassists for the same reason. Would it make more sense to market these to venues instead of bands? After all, it seems that the venue owners are the ones getting most of the benefit… They are the ones who can get rid of the huge PA systems, the big monitor desks, racks of outboard gear, the extra labor costs of having a soundguy or two… and they are the ones who really profit from having lower volume, better-distributed sound in their bars (bartenders/wait-staff hearing customers order customers not leaving because of excessive volume = more sales)… and on top of that, they are the ones who aren’t scared to spend $7k on a PA.
The “not producing bass well enough” complaint is easily addressed, in my opinion and in the opinion of several of the other posters on the Talkbass thread… consider the B1s as “mid-bass” boxes, to be used in conjunction with a real sub, or even just a folded 2x10" or something of that nature. With a 3-way approach (tower, mid-bass boxes, and low-bass cab), it seems that the kick-drum/bass guitar issues could be solved without much difficulty.
I know this post is absurdly long, but I hope this spurs some good discussion… I, for one, have begun saving for a Bose setup even though I haven’t yet tried one in person!
Best regards,
Dave
Hey Dave,
Welcome to the Bose musicians forum. I’ve read through your post and wow, there is a lot in there. As an “at-Bose” guy I think I’ll back down and let the community of owners help with the practical use questions, however, I would like to say that it is my belief that our marketing materials have not made some of the claims that you mentioned … I know how things get all turned around, like the telephone game of our youth, but let me be more specific.
quote:Also, Bose folks, to be frank with you, your marketing is a little frustrating to many, from what I understand - it takes the stance that musicians know very little about running sound, that we want nothing to do with the equipment, that we’re singer-songwriters who just happen to be on a stage in front of people, that all these “wires” and “amplifiers” are just so confusing that we would pay thousands just to make it all go away.
I believe I have seen every piece of marketing material created for this product since … well … since before it came to market. I feel that we’ve never taken the stance that musicians know very little about running sound, quite the opposite. I believe we have said, repeatedly, that musicians CAN run their own sound that’s why the L1 system works. If we felt like musicians could not run their own sound why would we suggest each player have their own remote?
I will say this though, and this is where I think the misinterpretation comes from, our messaging has said something like “it’s pretty hard to be a musician on stage and know what the audience is hearing”. I’m not sure how that could get misinterpreted but that’s why the telephone game is so much fun I guess.
And we have said that the wires and amps are not a part of making music and that most musicians would like it to go away. That data came from our research where we actually went out and interviewed many musicians to find out “what gets in the way of making music night-to-night” and as you can imagine, hooking up all that gear, then troubleshooting a ground loop, came out near the top … that and not being able to hear each other.
I hope that helps you on your quest to learn more about the L1 system. It is a wonderful system for bass players, but more importantly, it is a wonderful system for musicians who want to play in a group/band/ensemble. Is it right for everyone, no. Is it right for most musicians, yes, as a musician, I think so. I’m a biased of course, but I know this, if I won the lottery and didn’t have to work another day, I’d still use L1 systems for my band … though I’d probably pay someone to lug them in 'cuz I’m rich … right?
Thanks for coming by our forum for musicians,
Steve
Dave,
There are a lot of misconceptions about bass in general & about the Bose system. I’m still learning along with everyone else, & I’m anxious to see the discussion that your post will bring.
I’ve read the thread at TalkBass that you are referring to. There are some good points over there, but there’s a lot of folks who haven’t heard the Bose yet. I think they’d be surprised.
I know the bass player in my band says it’s the best he’s ever sounded plugged straight in with a 60’s P Bass & into the “P” preset, & he’s been around for 25 years. I trust his judgement.
Tom
Thanks for your responses, guys.
I’d like to reiterate that I’m paraphrasing some of the more negative criticisms of the Bose systems (and Bose marketing) from Talkbass users, and the consensus from non-Bose-system “converts” over there - not necessarily my own beliefs!
Personally, I would love not to have to lug a bass cab, PA, etc. I used to lug 2 bass cabs which together weighed 180 pounds, before I discovered neodynium magnet cabs. Now I lug a 55-pound cab to clubs. I would love not to have to lug anything! That is 1/2 of why I am so excited about the Bose system. The other 1/2 is the idea that I can get the same great tone I hear on stage, without being ear-bleeding loud, to my audiences - in a word, distribution. Personally, I couldn’t care less what your marketing campaign looks like; I’m interested in the performance of the product, haha.
I’ve done my best to address all the negative criticisms of the system and the approach over on the Talkbass thread, and correct as much of the misinformation as I can. I started this thread hoping you guys could help out, too. I think a lot of these guys could really benefit from experiencing the system, if they only understood what it really is and what it’s designed to do. I think this system is a godsend for live performers, and I say this having never actually used one myself… just talking about the approach. Good distribution at a relaxed volume is an ideal I applaud.
I do wish the system were less expensive, but that’s not to say I don’t think it’s worth the price, or overpriced… more that I just can’t afford it yet, haha. Hope this clears up a few things!
Looking forward to your responses,
Best,
Dave
I’d like to make a quick comment on my perceived context of “all these “wires” and “amplifiers”.”
I think Dave might be thinking of the backline “wires and amplifiers” that connect the tone generation aspect of a musician’s sound (fx, etc.). We can all agree that these are definitely important to many musicians, especially the “tube purist” category.
On the other hand the L1 approach speaks to replacing the monitor and front of house “wires and amplifiers” such as snakes, speaker cables, power amps, etc… This is the tone distribution aspect. Much different, and well worth repeating.
quote:Originally posted by Mark-at-Bose:
I'd like to make a quick comment on my perceived context of "all these "wires" and "amplifiers"."
I think Dave might be thinking of the backline "wires and amplifiers" that connect the tone generation aspect of a musician's sound (fx, etc.). We can all agree that these are definitely important to many musicians, especially the "tube purist" category.
On the other hand the L1 approach speaks to replacing the monitor and front of house "wires and amplifiers" such as snakes, speaker cables, power amps, etc.. This is the tone distribution aspect. Much different, and well worth repeating.
Thanks for the post, Mark. I was indeed talking about the tone distribution aspect. However, when tone purists read things like this:
"Conventional speakers—particularly guitar amplifiers—tend to be very directional in one tonal range, with a sharp beam of on-axis sound and a duller off-axis sound that is very broadly dispersed in all directions (including up and down). L1 systems spread the sound at nearly 180 degrees, for uniform coverage and smooth, consistent tone" (from the Bose website)
or this:
"all-in-one amplification system.... Onboard ToneMatch Presets, another Bose exclusive, let you quickly optimize the tone of up to 100 specific instruments and microphones, at the touch of a button. For more inputs and a suite of effects and tone-shaping tools, add the optional T1 ToneMatch audio engine" (from Musician's Friend)
they start to get worried that you're trying to get them to give up their favorite backline amps, especially when you announced that you're working together with Line6, you know?
It would be better, I think, if the marketing over-emphasized that you are talking about replacing PA amps and not necessarily guitar/bass amps. I think we can all agree (even the fussiest tone purists) that PA amps are a pain. Personally, I'd love to get rid of my backline bass amp, too - it's heavy and takes up a lot of space in the van, but I think people are getting scared away.
Although as I understand it (I haven't yet tried the Bose system), the Bose *can* serve as a replacement for backline amps, too, I think you are giving the wrong impression and turning people away from the Bose approach entirely by saying "wires" and "amps" can be eliminated. Some of these guys spend hundreds of dollars on each (guitar) cable and thousands upon thousands on their amps... You'd think they'd be all over the idea of near-perfectly distributing that carefully-crafted tone to the entire audience, but from what I'm hearing on Talkbass, they are getting the wrong impression. Just a thought!
Dave,
Thanks for posting! Id like to post my take on being a bass player with an L1, and then Ill answer some of the more pointed tech stuff in another post.
As a bass player I read the talkbass thread and totally understand the sentiment. Ive been on the other side so-to-speak, where I was a skeptic of the L1 approach for bass when I joined the Live Music team in early 2005. I used to use an Eden WT800 head Eden 410XST cab for every gig and practice I played. I now use a 4 B1 L1 system T1. Here’s how I got there as a bass player…
We as bass players love to live in our ‘zone’ on stage. For me, this was within 5’ for the Eden - if I was singing I would sing my part and retreat back to the Eden. Most of the time everything was too loud - I always wore musicians earplugs. Some rare gigs the sound was great, most it was terrible. I knew it wasnt the Eden’s fault - it always sounded great up close or mic’ed in the studio, so I just learned to deal with it. When I demoed an L1 next to my Eden, the key key key comparison is to leave the comfort of the ‘amp zone’. I patched a few instrument cables together and was able, for the first time, to really hear what my bass tone sounded like in the audience.
The difference to me was huge. The conventional rig was fairly undefined in the house. It just sounded like tons of bass, and while playing through an L1 it sounded like I wanted to hear it - a bass guitar. From there it just got better when I could hear my bass in balance with the rest of my band playing though L1’s.
A common misconception among bass players is that the L1 is trying to replace their amps tone. We are trying to facilitate ‘tone delivery’ as Chuck mentioned earlier. Now that the audience can more clearly hear the nuances of the bass tone its a much better canvas on which to paint. Lots of folks use ‘tone generators’ in front of the L1 - whether it be a Bass POD, SansAmp or other DI, then depend on the L1 to deliver to everyone.
Its a total shift in thinking for us bass players, and it is sort of against everything were told a bass amp should be. It does take a little time to get used to as a bass player.
More to come,
-Mike
Dave,
A player’s perpective as well…nothing technical.
I played with MikeZ in Colorado, and from my position on the far side of the stage with 3 or 4 guitar players between us, I can tell you his tone came thru solid, strong, and punchy. Mike plays with authority, not the slightest mush in his sound. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe he was using only 2 B1s as well.
I used to be insistent on the bassist being near me on stage to feel the pulse, but with the L1s it is not necessary.
P
While it’s true we are talking about the L1 being the tone distribution system, for a bassist we’re not usually talking about mic’ing a bass cab like we might be talking about mic’ing a guitar cab. We are usually talking about replacing the backline amp speaker with the L1. Sometimes this can be done by still using the bassist’s amp head for tone, but it’s usually accomplished with other outboard gear like a Pod or tube pre or for some bass players just using a preset on the Bose. The TalkBass posters are right that eventually modifying their backline amp by using the L1 is the final result of using this system. But in the end the audience will truly hear the tone that the bass player has worked so hard to obtain.
Tom
quote:Originally posted by MikeZ-at-Bose:
... We as bass players love to live in our 'zone' on stage. For me, this was within 5' for the Eden - if I was singing I would sing my part and retreat back to the Eden. Most of the time everything was too loud - I always wore musicians earplugs. Some rare gigs the sound was great, most it was terrible. I knew it wasnt the Eden's fault - it always sounded great up close or mic'ed in the studio, so I just learned to deal with it. When I demoed an L1 next to my Eden, the key key key comparison is to leave the comfort of the 'amp zone'. I patched a few instrument cables together and was able, for the first time, to really hear what my bass tone sounded like in the audience.
The difference to me was huge. The conventional rig was fairly undefined in the house. It just sounded like tons of bass, and while playing through an L1 it sounded like I wanted to hear it - a bass guitar. From there it just got better when I could hear my bass in balance with the rest of my band playing though L1's.
A common misconception among bass players is that the L1 is trying to replace their amps tone. We are trying to facilitate 'tone delivery' as Chuck mentioned earlier. Now that the audience can more clearly hear the nuances of the bass tone its a much better canvas on which to paint. Lots of folks use 'tone generators' in front of the L1 - whether it be a Bass POD, SansAmp or other DI, then depend on the L1 to deliver to everyone.
Its a total shift in thinking for us bass players, and it is sort of against everything were told a bass amp should be. It *does* take a little time to get used to as a bass player.
More to come,
-Mike
Very well put, Mike! Do you mind if I quote this on the TB thread?
By the way, I switched from a tube bass preamp to a Line6 POD about two years ago, for all sorts of reasons - consistency, reliability, versatility, and frankly, tone. It has taken me a long time to get the patches tweaked so that I have just the tone I want, and if there is a way to get that sound out to every audience member, no matter where they're sitting, at the correct balance between me and the other instruments... well, sign me up!
I use a Zoom H2 (with built-in stereo mics) to record all of our shows, so I have a fairly good idea of what my bass sounds like in the house. It sounds pretty much nothing like my carefully crafted Line6 patches, lol... We play one specific club fairly frequently, and I can always tell from listening to the recordings which of their 2 regular soundmen was at the board that night, because my bass tone is wildly different between them, even though I use the same Line6 patches - one guy gives the audience this really bright, poppy, Victor Wooten tone, and the other guy gives them this James Jamerson thing. I wish the audience would just get *my* tone! haha
Looking forward to trying out the Bose,