Hi. I've gone throught the recommended procedure for setting the trim level for my wife's vocals through an SM58 on our Tonematch T1. I have turned the trim around to maximum and there is only a hint of yellow showing. However, when I turn up the channel volume I get feedback after only a quarter turn (i.e at 9 o'clock). She doesn't have a powerful voice, but it is not a whisper. Can you advise me if there are other settings that I should look at, please? My vocal trim setting, again through an SM58, is around 2 o'clock.
Are you using the SM 58 tone match setting as well?
Which system is your T1 going into?
do you have any FX activated?
Hi Gouge47,
I'm sorry you're having trouble getting things set up for your wife's vocals.
Gouge47 posted:Hi. I've gone throught the recommended procedure for setting the trim level for my wife's vocals through an SM58 on our Tonematch T1.
Here is the recommended procedure.
Note: Your wife should using close microphone technique - lips barely brushing the windscreen of the microphone like this.
I have turned the trim around to maximum and there is only a hint of yellow showing. However, when I turn up the channel volume I get feedback after only a quarter turn (i.e at 9 o'clock). She doesn't have a powerful voice, but it is not a whisper. Can you advise me if there are other settings that I should look at, please? My vocal trim setting, again through an SM58, is around 2 o'clock.
If you swap microphones - does the situation improve?
It sounds like she needs to get right up on the microphone and sing directly into it. If she is singing farther away, and not directly on axis, you lose gain-before-feedback.
Here is some more information.
ST
I rarely have the trim set beyond 12 o’clock on my L1. I would look into reducing the trim, getting closer to the mic as ST suggests, and work the mixer up a little.
If you get more than an inch or so away from a 58, it’s pickup drops dramatically. So do take a look at ST’s link to mic technique.
This also might be helpful http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/inde...rformance_Techniques
Go to a local music store, where they will let her test microphones, @Gouge47 . Start with a Sennheiser e935. It has a lot of gain before feedback and works well with soft female voices. Also, see if the store will take the SM58 in on trade.
The e935 might have a little has more gain before feedback than an SM58 but the difference will be modest at best (they are both Cardioid mics). If you are using an L1 they are incredibly feedback resistant which suggests that either mic technique needs refining or you are expecting too much of the system.
Thanks for the replies. I'll try to respond to all comments. I used the exact technique shown in the video - it was the video that showed me that we had been incorrectly using the trim setting for years! That's when I found the original problem. We use the Tonematch settings for SM58 and a slight amount of reverb (medium room) and slight delay. We are aware of the need to get close to the microphone - I've been using the SM58 for over 10 years. We use an L1 array and sometimes put the Tonematch through our church PA system. I wonder if there is an EQ problem. We've tried swapping mics and input channels but the problem still exists. We'll try the suggestion of a trim setting of 12 o'clock and increasing the volume.
Hi, how long have you been experiencing this feedback problem and does she sing in front of the L1? When I get feedback is when I turn my mic towards my L1 model II or if I have another mic attached to the T1 that’s not being used but isn’t muted on the T1
Good points Patrizia.
For our acoustic duo, we typically like to have our L1 behind us and we stand on either side about 4 feet away. Not always possible to do this though given various stage situations.
In addition, we have our mics pointing away from the L1 tower at roughly a 35 degree angle. Never straight back or pointing directly to the L1 tower. That also allows us to be slightly facing each other while we play which is nice to have from an overall performance perspective.
We do use Shure SM 58 Betas which are super cardioid and, as such, very feedback resistant although we used regular 58s for years as well.
Regardless of the info you see on setting trim, I’d try playing around with keeping it at 12 to start and playing with the gain and volume of your mixer. Play around with those settings to see if that might work better for your situation.
I feel like I’m sounding like a line from the movie Pirates of the Caribbean where the pirate code is referred to as being more of a “guideline” vs absolute rule. ??
Beta 58's are definitely better for feedback resistance but are significant less forgiving of wayward mic technique so don't suit everybody (I never use them at open mic nights for example).
Thanks for all the comments. Really appreciated. As you can see, I'm trying to eliminate the things we've already tried in order to get to the real source of the problem. When we use the L1 and a bass unit in church, we stand about 8 - 10 feet in front of the array (maximum for the "network" cable). While both mics point at the speakers, mine has no feedback problem, but we pull a thick curtain behind my wife to block hers from the speakers. Even so, we sometimes get feedback when away from her mic, so we have to mute. Elsewhere, we stand at an angle, as Patrizia suggested, which is where the main feedback problem occurs. My next approach is to go into the EQ settings and try to find the frequency of the feedback to reduce that bit of the EQ.
Hi Gouge47,
Gouge47 posted:Thanks for all the comments. Really appreciated. As you can see, I'm trying to eliminate the things we've already tried in order to get to the real source of the problem. When we use the L1 and a bass unit in church, we stand about 8 - 10 feet in front of the array (maximum for the "network" cable). While both mics point at the speakers, mine has no feedback problem, but we pull a thick curtain behind my wife to block hers from the speakers. Even so, we sometimes get feedback when away from her mic, so we have to mute. Elsewhere, we stand at an angle, as Patrizia suggested, which is where the main feedback problem occurs. My next approach is to go into the EQ settings and try to find the frequency of the feedback to reduce that bit of the EQ.
Please check out the Microphone Feedback article. Specifically the section on using the ParaEQ to find and deal with specific frequencies.
ST
Have you tried singing into each others mics? Or swapping mics? If your's has no feedback issues but your wife's does then it would help to know what is different between the two setups and which of those differences is causing the problem. Be systematic, change one thing at a time and note the result. I suspect the problem may be that you have a more powerful voice than she does so need less gain (or have better mic technique).
HTH
Hi Gouge47,
In another discussion, several of us were comparing different microphones - examining the input sensitivity.
EV ND 96 3.3 mV Supercardioid
EV ND 86 2.4 mV Supercardioid
EV N/D767A 3.1 mV Supercardioid
Sennheiser e945 2.0 mV Supercardioid
Sennheiser e935 2.8 mV Cardioid
Shure SM58 1.85 mV Cardioid
Shure Beta 58 2.6 mV Supercardioid
Audix OM5 2 mV Hypercardioid
I'm not suggesting that higher sensitivity equates to higher quality. However, a microphone with higher sensitivity may be louder when comparing microphones heard through an S1 Pro (assuming you have the volume control at 12:00 o'clock). This will apply at any volume setting up to the maximum available volume of the S1 Pro.
Source: Volume too low with Shure SM58
While we were talking about the S1 Pro in that discussion, there is some information there for you too.
You want to apply the best practices (close mic technique, optimal gain staging, and the other techniques in Microphone Feedback) to get the best results from any microphone - However some people sing softly. That includes me and I find it easier to perform using a microphone with a higher input sensitivity like the ones with higher numbers in the middle column above.
I recently picked up an Audix VX-5
It is a supercardioid condenser microphone and like many microphones that use phantom power, the input sensitivity (5 mV) is higher than any of the microphones on the list above. It's price about the same as a Shure Beta 87a. Your T1 can supply phantom power and there's no issue having phantom power turned on while using your Shure SM58 at the same time.
I'm getting great results with the Audix VX-5 microphone and it has become the new favorite of one of my female singing partners.
ST
I like Capacitor mics for non-rock singers and particularly female voices. I'm not sure how relevant sensitivity is WRT gain before feedback issues as in this thread. I have yet to encounter a mic that had insufficient sensitivity to send the meters into the red when used close up.
Hello - what does this mean ? “sometimes get feedback when away from her mic, so we have to mute” - when she is not singing in part of a song ? Is she dropping the mic when not singing or turning towards the L1? Please explain - I make sure I hold my mic in front of me - center - once again making sure it’s not in the direction of the L1.
If I have a song with a long break in the song, my sound person sometimes mutes me too cause if I forget and walk around I get some feedback - but then he has to remember to take the mute off ??
Hi Patrizia,
Nice catch!
Patrizia posted:Hello - what does this mean ?“sometimes get feedback when away from her mic, so we have to mute” - when she is not singing in part of a song ? Is she dropping the mic when not singing or turning towards the L1? Please explain - I make sure I hold my mic in front of me - center - once again making sure it’s not in the direction of the L1.
If I have a song with a long break in the song, my sound person sometimes mutes me too cause if I forget and walk around I get some feedback - but then he has to remember to take the mute off ??
In the article about Microphone Feedback there is a section about using the ToneMatch mixer Noise Gate to automatically mute the microphone when you are not singing directly into it.
Hi Gouge47,
You can use the Comp Gate feature too.
ST
Hi. I think I've solved the problem. The compressor/gate setting on the mic channels had a high gain on a high frequency. Not sure where it came from. I changed the settings and the feedback problem appears to have gone away. I have also adjusted the ParaEQ and improved the quality of the output. I'm still exploring the settings, trying them out one at a time, but already we've got a better, fuller sound. When I mentioned getting feedback when she was away from the mic, I meant physically away from the equipment - sitting elsewhere when not playing. It was a buildup of background noise which probably triggered the critical frequency for feedback. By understanding more about trim settings, we've now got a better sound balance. Anyway, many thanks for all of your comments and advice. I've learned a lot and I know where to come if I have any more problems.
Awesome, @Gouge47 , thanks for checking back in with your improving sound issue. I often forget about that noise gate/squelch, as I no longer have the same issues using Sennheiser e935 microphones. Also, a foam windscreen will help in stopping some of that ambient noise from getting through her micry when she's away.