For your consideration and advice:
(Two L1s with four B1 bass units, having both electronic piano and acoustic electric cello input stereo to both L1s, sharing the stereo field)
We would be physically set-up close together, with the L1s spread apart and two B1 bass units with each L1. I am thinking that the on-stage
stereo field would envelop around us and would be perfect for a performance space of100 to 250 seat audience.
Our live mix volume has the cello slightly out front of the piano, which could be achieved with a mix of both L1s.
The bottom end of the electronic piano represents the bass player in the duo, creating the sound effect, at times, of a trio.
The sound of the electronic piano is a stereo modeled Fender Rhodes and the acoustic electric cello has stereo out from a reverb unit.
Please advise if you see any modifications to this set-up.
Hi Neal,
First of all, welcome to the L1 Forum. We’re glad you’re here.
I’ll take a crack at answering your question but I’d also really like some of the members here to provide their perspective. There’s a lot of communal knowledge and I only have a piece of it.
In general, I’ve gotten the most consistent results when ONE musical instrument comes from ONE L1 system.
However, if an instrument has been created with a stereo field in mind, and that work has been done expertly (more on that in a second) then I think it’s possible to do some special things with the L1 system.
I think a lot of electronic instrument makers add “stereo” to their products without a lot of effort put into doing that well. It becomes something of a checkbox feature and the quality can vary all over the map.
If your instrument sounds great in stereo on a really good stereo system, then I think it will sound even better on a stereo L1 setup, and here’s why. Because the sound level of the L1 (the longer the line array of the L1 the more true this is – the Model II is the highest in this dimension) falls off more slowly than a conventional speaker, we’ve found that the area over which a stereo field is satisfyingly well, “stereo” sounding, is much larger. We found you could walk a large area and still hear “stereo”, something that isn’t true at all for conventional PA speakers.
So my basic answer is, "If your stereo instrument sounds good on a good stereo, it will also sound good on and L1 stereo system, and will sound good over a much larger area than usual."
Anybody else want to pipe in here?
Further questions Neal?
Ken
I play in 4 piece rock bands. I own two L1 systems, each with a B2 and T1. If I had 4 L1’s I would definitely go the route of a single L1 per musician. But since I am the only one in the band ponying up money for L1 systems I can’t afford 2 more.
I also own a Presonus 16.0.2 studio live mixer. Over time using 2 L1’s for 4 people, I found that if we put 2 musicians through one L1 and 2 through the other it worked out well as long as the band was set up fairly tight together. But I found that if I was playing a venue where the stage wasn’t very deep but was wide we would find that we couldn’t hear the other musicians well enough. I think if the stage was deeper and we could get far enough in front of the L1s it would be different, but as musicians we often have to conform to our environment.
In these situations, when I only had the T1s I would run from the aux out of each to T1 to the analog in of the opposite power stand. Then I would feed a bit of the audio from one to the other so we could all hear all the musicians. When I got the Presonus, I just used stereo panning to do the same thing. The plus to this is that I get the effects on both sides. It works fine, again if we are tight enough together and I am using the persons, I actually hard pan each musician either left or right.
Still despite all that if I had the resources I would go one L1 per musician. If I was only 2 musicians I would set up one per musician. I agree with Ken’s assessment that if the instrument sounds good in stereo it will sound better in Bose stereo, but my question would be why bother? Let the stereo field be cello in it’s own space and piano in it’s own space. If I run a stereo mp3 recording into a single L1 summed to mono, it still sounds amazing, and I mean AMAZING!!! And you can go anywhere in the room and the sound barely changes at all.
In my experience with the L1s, because the lateral dispersion with them is so wide, it lessens the need for stereo.
I’ve only been using the L1s for a few years but this is what I have discovered so far. If I was you I would experiment a bit with one musician per L1 as well as the stereo idea. It’s pretty difficult to make the Bose L1s sound bad but with knowledge and experience you can make them sound better.
quote:But I found that if I was playing a venue where the stage wasn't very deep but was wide we would find that we couldn't hear the other musicians well enough. I think if the stage was deeper and we could get far enough in front of the L1s it would be different, but as musicians we often have to conform to our environment.
I should clarify my thoughts behind what I am finding in the above scenario. The dispersion of the L1 being almost 180 degress means that that sound from the other L1 will indeed reach the musicians even despite being widely dispersed. What I believe the problem is, is that because the stage isn't deep enough the musicians are forced to stand to close to the L1 on their side of the stage. That's why I think if we were able to get out in front a little more the balance would start to even out.
For veterans, I’ll point out that Neal was the drummer at 2006 Big Sur L1 Conference.
An incredible player.
He’s now using his given first name, Neal.
Anybody else on Neal’s question about using stereo?
Ken
Hi Neal. When I got my first 2 L1 systems, I too thought it would be an awesome stereo PA. Thus, I first set up my L1s as so. To my disappointment, the results were not as satisfying as I had imagined. I got a bunch of cancellations and acoustically, I didn’t get the experience of a stereo system at all, even though I had set it up that way (I was using an Allen & Heath WZ3 mixer). Since then, I’ve gone with the traditional L1 approach, that is one per instrument/player, and the results have been amazing. A lesson I’ve learned is that a pair of Bose QC3 headphones are the best if I wanted stereo sound. With the L1 system, multi-mono gives the best sound and listening experience.
Hi Neal,
Greetings from 2006 and today.
Did you catch this performance back in Big Sur?
That was Alan on electronic keyboard and Mary Anne on Cello. She’s at centre-stage, Alan was off to the left.
If I recall this correctly, the composition was called “Elegy”. Alan had composed the keyboard part specifically to create an electronic soundscape that was conceived, produced and intended to be heard in a stereo field. He ran through two of the many L1®s on the stage.
Mary Anne played Cello through one L1® directly behind her.
This was the only performance that I can remember that did NOT have each performer playing through his/her own L1® (and only one L1®).
From what you have written, let me encourage you to set your stage with the L1®s behind you and for each of you to play through only one L1®, the closest one. The glorious sound of each of you being visually correlated with the sound (as you would be unamplified) will create a beautiful sound field that is both natural and compelling. Having the L1®s for amplification will allow you to share the sound both separate at the source and blending naturally in the air, throughout the room.
There’s some psycho-acoustic discussion to support that (Cocktail Party Effect) but your ears will tell you if this works for you. But please at least try it.
All the best,
ST
I think the ideal, in most cases would be to have one musician to one L1, however, experiment and find what sounds best to you. If you have a small digital recorder, you can record your instruments direct in in stereo and reproduce several different setups. If you have a large rehearsal room, or if you can schedule some time before or after a gig, walk the room and see what you hear.
One of my guitars has two separate pickups in it. I’ve found some pretty exciting sounds when sending one pickup out to one L1, stage left and the other to an L1 stage right. I put different eq and effects on each output and the sound is pretty big for just one guitar.
Experiment. The L1 is still the best I’ve ever used. Good luck and happy music making.
Rick