The T4s is labelled as a Stereo Mixer with built in FX. Typically FX such as Delay is mono input and stereo output, this of course gives much greater width to the effect making it sound much more natural by bouncing it left and right across the stereo output.... But what if...
What if you have a T4s and ONE L1 II - B2? This obviously can only be mono. So what happens when you connect your T4s digital output 'left' to the L1 II... Took me a while to work out why the mono output from the L1 sounded flat and boxy compared to what is heard on the stereo headphones output on the T4s and I 'think' its NOT just because its mono but because half of the stereo FX output is missing!
Any thoughts on this anyone?
Edit Subject: Previously "Has anyone else noticed..."
Bose Pro Community Admin
... and then a funny thing happened to me on the way to swapping the left-right digital feed to the L1-II, as we would expect the L1-II now delivers the stereo sum received from the T4s. This I expected to cause me a problem and be unusable but nevertheless I stuck with it. Now anyone who might have followed my posts regarding the useless USB-A Player that is fixed to the Master out and it NOT being possible to reassign it, keep that in mind...
With my setup I have to split the stereo left and right channels such that one goes to Master output and the other only goes to fold-back monitoring. I managed to resolve that by routing USB-B to channel 3 and 4 and then swinging the pan hard left and hard right respectively, hence channel 4 (the music) feeds the L1-II and Channel 3 goes 'somewhere' but it doesn't come out of the L1-II, which IS what I wanted to happen.
I still didn't expect things to follow through but they did because the Headphones out turns out NOT to be a clone of main mono digital output, its a clone of pre-master. What this means is the T4s is feeding a digital mono signal to the L1-II that does NOT include channel 3 when its panned hard left. However, in the headphones output we have something different, in the headphones we have stereo, hence left ear gets channel 3 panned left. Right ear gets channel 4 panned hard right and in the middle is my vocal panned centre which also means FX stereo output is being summed into the mono digital out. EUREKA FINALLY, albeit by accident this T4s starts to fall into something that I might be able to make use of.
So in short, pretty much by accident the T4s can do what I need it to do IF I feed it via USB-B. Yeah but, that doesn't solve the problem with USB-A because you cannot alter its route! Well actually you can sort of, because I've now discovered that it follows USB-B. I've not seen, I've not been told, and I have read nothing that suggests USB-A follows USB-B but the fact is it does... maybe its time the manual for the T4s is re-written and the tech support staff are retrained. Otherwise I would have thought that either the manual or Tech Support would have told me a week ago that USB-A follows USB-B.
Everyday is a school day!
Sorry for going but some of you out there might find this important.
If you are operating a T4s in stereo with 2 L1's chances are your channels will be panned off centre. That's fine but, If you use only one L1 in a mono configuration anything panned left of centre will be either reduced level or non existent if panned hard left. This can only happen if only the channel 'right' bus mix is taken through to the mono output. However it seems the FX return(s) are summed at mono output.
If you want to test it, put some FX on a channel, and listen to it with ONE L1 connected to the 'power/digital out' socket on the T4s. Pan the channel centre or right of centre and you'll notice nothing much, pan it hard left and all you will hear is the FX bleeding over from the right mix bus. Listen on headphones socket, and its all stereo.
It's probably more design error or maybe a limitation of hardware/software but it actually does me a favour as it makes it possible for me to use this thing.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for high lighting this. To confirm:
On the T4S and T8S the routing you set up for USB-B from PC also applies to the USB A media playback.
I've notes about this in the T4S/T8S wiki article.
Cheers!
ST
No worries ST.
You might also check out and confirm my discovery regarding the left mix bus being dropped out of the 'summed to mono' line out but it does maintain its route to the headphones out.
This could be VERY significant to some users, as indeed it was to me.
Hi Dave,
We hit an odd collision of needs:
The L1 units are mono.
The T1 is mono.
People get two L1/F1/S1 units, and they want stereo.
The T1 doesn't do stereo (really).
The T4S/T8S are stereo.
The T4S/T8S aren't mono.
The stereo/mono issue is rarely an issue unless you have stereo program material (like prerecorded music).
For those reading along.
There is no "summed to mono" output on T4S/T8S ToneMatch mixers. This is common with stereo mixers. The silkscreen on the back that says "MONO" is a misprint. See: Mono Output
To get a mono output of the main channels (1-4 / 1-8) you can
- Pan all the inputs to one side. On the T4S that should be the right side to work properly with an L1 connected to the right ToneMatch port
OR
- Use one of the Aux outputs. The Aux inputs cannot be routed to Aux.
To get a mono output of the USB inputs, you can set the USB from PC routing to a channel (e.g., both left and right to channel 4 and send channel 4 to an Aux output).
Thanks again for highlighting this.
ST
Totally take your point regarding the t1 being a mono mix bus and a mono output. I totally take your point regarding the T4s/T8s being a stereo mix bus. I also understand as how user may typically deploy them.
From my prospective, the labelling on the back of the T4s seems to imply how most modern stereo devices are configured whereby connecting to both output left and output right it delivers stereo but if you only connect to one output then a stereo summed mono signal is delivered.
Maybe I imagined it, but six ears had the impression from the L1-II that the FX has big holes in it on the left bus but the right bus doesn't. Perhaps its a cross-talk issue? Time to warm up the sig-gen and scope me thinks.
Hi Dave,
As I mentioned above.
"The silkscreen on the back that says "MONO" is a misprint. See: Mono Output"
I frequently see signal sources (keyboards, guitar processors) that have Left MONO / Right outputs. I rarely see this feature on stereo mixers.
I haven't had an issue with the effects.
ST
ST,
I'm not an audio expert or electronics expert, but I did spend the early part of my working life in engineering actually building professional mixing desks. There was a time and maybe not that long ago when no one had seen or heard of a mixer referred to as 'stereo'! It used to be Two-Track, Four Track, and so on. That would be denoted into lets say 6/2 (6 input and 2 output). There were things like 10/1 for radio broadcast but then someone invented stereo radio! Then the /1 could be a stereo channel out. I used to build the big boys toys, the 24/8/2 types etc. The /2 would in fact be the final stereo mix but it would never have been referred to as a 'stereo' mixer.
So given that the T4s is referred to as a "Stereo Mixer" it is not following conventional mixer terminology. So I think it reasonable to assume that if it has a 'stereo output' it is also reasonable to assume that it might have a MONO mode? Given that summing a stereo output can be done by switch contacts within the connectors, or by electronically detecting a load or source is connected I think it highly probable that the device would function in this way. I wonder if the screen print is an error or maybe the hardware/firmware just didn't match up to the label on production day.
Anyway, as I said, maybe I imagined it, I will as soon as I get time check it out more scientifically. I'm not arguing what you say that it does not sum the stereo to mono at the output socket, but something convinced my ears that it did. I'll let you know what I discover, if its my imagination I'll put my hand up to it.
Hi Dave,
For larger mixers, we frequently use the shorthand tracks/busses terminology. It's a great way to convey some information concisely.
In the world of compact ?/2 mixers (two output busses), the outputs are almost always referred to as Left and Right, and even on larger systems, pan controls are usually labeled Left and Right. When we talk about assigning tracks to busses, then yes, we get back to identifying things by number.
Most of the ?/2 mixers I've seen do not explicitly identify themselves as a stereo mixer. In that segment of the audio world, where two busses are identified as Left and Right, using the term stereo seems unnecessary. Bose featured the term stereo because this is what the customers said they wanted. Customers didn't say they wanted two busses. They said they wanted stereo.
Setting aside the history, I've been helping people connect their ?/2 mixers to their L1 systems ever since the L1 came out. Most of those compact mixers identified the outputs as Left, and Right, the pan controls as Left and Right, and almost none have a sum to mono option for the output.
Cheers,
ST