T4S with two L1 Classic systems

Portable PA
1

I have dual L1 classic system with B1s and this information is very helpful. I always wondered why after connecting 3 vocal mics to my tonematch mixer t4s was susceptible to feedback more than connecting single MIC. I have never used both my L1 systems simultaneously. I use it for small parties and cultural gatherings where people come and perform , like a annual school ay event where the programs vary a great deal eg: skit, solo singing , group singing , string bass vocal performers at once.

Can I connect both L1 classic systems using a single t4s mixer ? Because it only has 1 master output , do I need to use cable splitter or is there a master and slave mode on the L1 Classic systems. ?

Appreciate all the inputs in advance. Did not mean to interrupt this most well written question and answer discussion but felt my question is  an extension to the discussion here. 

 

Thanks again.

-xytiz 

This post originally appeared in How to Setup L1 Model II with 1 B2 Properly - Bose Pro Community Admin  

2

Hi, xytiz.

Thanks for the great question.

Here's how you can connect your T4S mixer to your two L1 Classics.

The cables can be 1/4 inch (6.3mm) Tip-Sleeve (ordinary instrument cables).

mceclip0.png378×599 95.5 KB

Here are some notes about Microphone Feedback.

Does that help?
ST

3

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH ST for your time and patience to clearly explain, I appreciate you put volume levels also, Lot of attention to detail, Really helps a newbie like myself..

Is it possible to use T1 Tonematch instead of t4s ? I have a T1 tone match also. The one with 3 separate I/p and 4-5 are TS inputs (Like the ones you mentioned above). But has only master o/p. 

Thanks 

-xytiz

4

Hi, xytiz.

xytiz posted:

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH ST for your time and patience to clearly explain, I appreciate you put volume levels also, Lot of attention to detail, Really helps a newbie like myself.

You are welcome.

I should have mentioned a related article - T4S to L1 Classic in which it says

T4S ToneMatch mixer to two L1 Classic/L1 Model I systems

To run a T4S ToneMatch mixer with two L1 Model I or L1 Classic

On the T4S ToneMatch mixer Pan your inputs left and right as required, but for best results, pan your inputs to one side or the other, but not up the middle



To elaborate on the highlighted section above:

One of the benefits of using the T4S is you can separate the microphones so you don't have all three going to one L1. Pan two microphones to one L1 and the other to the second L1. You want the sound from each microphone to come from only one L1 - the closest one. If you have a singer who stands in the middle, pan his/her microphone to the side with the singer that sounds the most different from the singer in the middle.





Is it possible to use T1 Tonematch instead of t4s ?

Yes, you can, but you lose the benefit of being able to split the microphones.

I have a T1 tone match also. The one with 3 separate I/p and 4-5 are TS inputs (Like the ones you mentioned above). But has only master o/p. 

Since you have a T4S - use it. It allows you to split the microphones and with the 3-band ParaEQ in the T4S you have more control if you need to use the ParaEQ to help with feedback issues. 

Using the T1 may complicate things by lowering your gain-before-feedback. If you must use the T1, do NOT use a splitter. That can lead to problems with the phase relationship between the two L1 systems.

You can connect things like this

  • T1 Master Output to
    • First L1 Channel 1
        - ToneMatch Preset 00
        - Trim at about 4 on the dial
      • First L1 Channel 1 Line Out to
        • Second L1 Channel 1
          - ToneMatch Preset 00
          - Trim at about 4 on the dial


Thanks 

-xytiz

Use the T4S if you are running to two L1 Classics.

OR

Use the T4S with one L1 Classic, and the T1 with the other L1 Classic.

Connect two microphones to the T4S.

Connect the other microphone to the T1.

Although, if you don't need more than four inputs - it's simpler to use the T4S and pan each input hard to one side.

ST

5
xytiz posted:

I have dual L1 classic system with B1s and this information is very helpful. I always wondered why after connecting 3 vocal mics to my tonematch mixer t4s was susceptible to feedback more than connecting single MIC. 

Any sound system will be more susceptible to feedback as you add more mics. All things equal, each added mic drops the "margin to feedback" by 3dB, so if you have added two more then you're margin drops by about 6dB, which is a perceived as a "noticeable change in volume". Note: for reference, a 10dB change in volume is generally perceived as twice as loud ( 10dB) or half as loud (-10dB).

There are things you can do to limit this, like mic placement, mic pickup pattern, frequency adjustment (system/channel EQ), individual mic channel volume, etc, but this is the general explanation of why.

Hope this helps,
Jeff

6

Thanks a lot ST. I think I like the idea of using two separate mixers. Keep it simple. Two mics per Mixer and club the most diff sounding vocalists together. Yes, will not split the TS cable. Thanks for that tip. 

Thanks Jeff, I now remember some of the physics I had studied in a diff era :- ). In amplifier circuits how 3 dB gain or loss amounts to twice or half of power and in case of sound(longitudinal waves) the loudness as you rightly pointed out 10dB is agreed upon as a perceived loudness doubling or cut in half. I should read up more on wikipedia :-). But Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

 

Best

-xytiz 

 

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Hi, xytiz.

xytiz posted:

Thanks a lot ST. I think I like the idea of using two separate mixers. Keep it simple. Two mics per Mixer and club the most diff sounding vocalists together.

Simple = good.

Be sure to read this article. Microphone Feedback

Yes, will not split the TS cable. Thanks for that tip. 

You're welcome.

ST



Thanks Jeff, I now remember some of the physics I had studied in a diff era :- ). In amplifier circuits how 3 dB gain or loss amounts to twice or half of power and in case of sound(longitudinal waves) the loudness as you rightly pointed out 10dB is agreed upon as a perceived loudness doubling or cut in half. I should read up more on wikipedia :-). But Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

Best

-xytiz 

8

Thanks ST . I read Microphone Feedback article, very informative indeed .. 

I have SM57 , SM57 beta , E385 and a cheap wireless Mic.

One last question : I am buying a Audio snake 50ft(link : Monoprice) it has reverse lines TRS cables. Can I use it like a DI on stage ? and connect it to 4/5 inputs its a TRS line from audio snake (i think it should be okay).

So, Basically TS cable from a string instrument to on stage Audio Snake i/p cable end of the snake box to my 4/5 input. Does that work okay ? This is a free event and This is my first gig I am just starting out so want to spread the word. Because, I have bought these great speakers (I like good sound like an audiophile  I am trying to setup Audio support hobby but not like a DJ (that pays for buying nice high end toys like these) during weekends. Hence, don't want to invest too much. I am already done with my budget.:-(

My setup includes SM57, E385, S57 Beta , 2 L1 classics with 3 B1 modules between them and a non brand wireless MIC (works fine for MCs etc).I have no space to store my audio snake :-P.

Thanks again in advance to EACH AND EVERYONE HERE. This is amazing resource for newbies like myself.

Best 

-xytiz

9

Hi, xytiz.

xytiz posted:

Thanks ST . I read Microphone Feedback article, very informative indeed .. 

I have SM57 , SM57 beta , E385 and a cheap wireless Mic.

One last question : I am buying a Audio snake 50ft(link : Monoprice) it has reverse lines TRS cables. Can I use it like a DI on stage ? and connect it to 4/5 inputs its a TRS line from audio snake (i think it should be okay).

I'm not familiar with this product, so all I can say is "maybe."



So, Basically TS cable from a string instrument to on stage Audio Snake i/p cable end of the snake box to my 4/5 input. Does that work okay ?

It depends.

Ideally, you would use a short unbalanced cable from the instrument to a DI to a balanced input (one of the XLR inputs) on the stage box.

One objective is to keep unbalanced lines from low-output instruments as short as possible.  I wouldn't connect an unbalanced output from a stringed instrument to a cable that is in excess of 50 feet long (cable from the instrument to the stage box plus the 50-foot snake).  I might be less concerned with an electronic keyboard or a line-level signal source. For more reading about cable length and tone see Do Guitar Cables Affect Your Sound, How Long Are Your Cables, Choosing Guitar Cables

Note: The T1 inputs 4/5 are best suited to balanced line-level signal sources (not unbalanced, high-impedance low-level instrument inputs).  The 1/4 inch (6.3 mm) jacks on the combo inputs (T1, channels 1, 2, 3, and T4S channels 1, 2, 3, 4) are better suited to stringed instrument sources. But since you are going through the snake, using a DI is probably a better idea.

This is a free event and This is my first gig I am just starting out so want to spread the word. Because, I have bought these great speakers (I like good sound like an audiophile&nbsp I am trying to setup Audio support hobby but not like a DJ (that pays for buying nice high end toys like these) during weekends. Hence, don't want to invest too much. I am already done with my budget.:-(

My setup includes SM57, E385, S57 Beta , 2 L1 classics with 3 B1 modules between them and a non brand wireless MIC (works fine for MCs etc).I have no space to store my audio snake :-P.

Thanks again in advance to EACH AND EVERYONE HERE. This is amazing resource for newbies like myself.

Best 

-xytiz

Be sure to try and test everything (including the snake) before you get to the gig.

ST

10

Hi All 

Thanks for all the help.

My first gig went well yesterday about 150-200 people..


I kept my setup simple. Master out of t1 from left most mics went to right side L1 classic and master out for right most mics went to left L1 classic.

As suggested I kept it on input channel 3 and volume level at the base of L1 at 3. I also did not add any phantom power and controlled the volume of mics with the gain at t1s .. This is what I connected 6 mics (4 sm57 , sm57 beta, senhiser 385) .. 

The master volume was almost full and so were the volumes of each channel.

Gain staging did not happen as I would have liked but there was no feedback from any mics .. Did I have to put phantom power at T1 to get better gain staging ? Or did I have to keep channel 1 volume at 4 or more at both L1 bases ?

But the even went without any glitches and all the artists thanked me, they were skeptical in the beginning as there was no monitor speaker .. But everyone was happy in the end with the sound. 

Thanks a lot everyone and special thanks to ST. 

xytiz 

 

11

Hi, xytiz.

xytiz posted:

Hi All 

Thanks for all the help.

My first gig went well yesterday about 150-200 people.

That's great. Thanks for coming back to tell us about the gig.


I kept my setup simple. Master out of t1 from left most mics went to right side L1 classic and master out for right most mics went to left L1 classic.

Check.



As suggested I kept it on input channel 3 and volume level at the base of L1 at 3. I also did not add any phantom power and controlled the volume of mics with the gain at t1s .. This is what I connected 6 mics (4 sm57 , sm57 beta, senhiser 385) .

Your microphones are all dynamic mics (assuming you meant a Sennheiser e835). None of you dynamic microphones require phantom power so you can leave phantom power off on the T1 and the L1 power stands.



The master volume was almost full and so were the volumes of each channel.

That sounds like the T1 input channel trim settings may have been low. If you saw solid green (with occasional flashes of yellow) on the T1 trim lights, things were probably fine on the T1.  You should be able to turn up the L1 input trim setting a little higher (4 instead of 3).



Gain staging did not happen as I would have liked but there was no feedback from any mics .. Did I have to put phantom power at T1 to get better gain staging ?

As mentioned above, your microphones don't require phantom so you can leave phantom power turned off.

Or did I have to keep channel 1 volume at 4 or more at both L1 bases ?

You said you connected to the L1 power stands using channel 3.

But the even went without any glitches and all the artists thanked me, they were skeptical in the beginning as there was no monitor speaker .. But everyone was happy in the end with the sound. 

Hey, that's terrific.

Thanks a lot everyone and special thanks to ST. 

xytiz 

You're welcome.

ST

12

Yes yes , sorry I meant channel 3 at volume 4 .. also I ensured both L1s were more than 20 ft apart..

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Hi, xytiz.

xytiz posted:

Yes yes , sorry I meant channel 3 at volume 4 .. also I ensured both L1s were more than 20 ft apart..

Aha! That makes more sense.

Cheers,

ST