I'm considering getting a pair of F1s for a band (trio) I'm in. Most of the time we would be using these in a typical FOH position, using stage monitors. However, in some cases, like house concerts, it might be nice to use them like I've used my L1, positioned behind us. Since I already have one L1, I was wondering if we could use the F1s (on stands) behind us, as if they were a pair of L1s, in addition to the L1 that I have. I know they behave as line arrays - I'm wondering would they work similarly? Thanks for any thoughts or experience!
Hi, Don Richmond.
Welcome to the Bose Portable PA Community. I'm glad you joined us.
Thanks for the interesting question.
For context, I have a permanent house concert setup with several L1s across the back of the stage and a pair of F1 Stacks (F1 Model 812 with F1 Subwoofer) as Front of House. We mix and match things depending on the act. The venue seats 125-150 people depending on seating.
Sometimes we run the L1 systems behind the performers at modest volume for stage monitors and the F1 Model 812 systems in the Front of House position. This can work well if we're trying to get a lot of volume for the audience without excessive stage volume for the performers.
For acoustic-oriented or intimate concerts we use the L1 systems without the F1s.
Don Richmond posted:I'm considering getting a pair of F1s for a band (trio) I'm in. Most of the time we would be using these in a typical FOH position, using stage monitors. However, in some cases, like house concerts, it might be nice to use them like I've used my L1, positioned behind us. Since I already have one L1, I was wondering if we could use the F1s (on stands) behind us, as if they were a pair of L1s, in addition to the L1 that I have. I know they behave as line arrays - I'm wondering would they work similarly? Thanks for any thoughts or experience!
In a small venue (house concert) you can put the F1 Model 812 systems behind you, but the line arrays are only eight drivers. By comparison, the L1 systems have twelve drivers (L1 Model 1S) or twenty-four drivers (L1 Model II), The F1 Model 812 systems volume drops off more quickly over distance than the L1 systems. This means that in all but the smallest venues, you will probably have to run the F1 Model 812 systems at a higher stage volume than you would L1 systems. The result - a greater tendency to have issues with feedback.
You might be okay with an L1 and two F1 Model 812 systems behind your trio in a very small venue, but the farther you have to project, the more you'll notice the difference in the way the systems behave and propagate sound.
Another thing you'll notice is: your L1 has a horizontal dispersion of approximately 180 degrees. The F1 Model 812 horizontal dispersion is 100 degrees. That's why we usually set up two F1 Model 812 systems on either side of a stage running dual-mono to cover the width of a room. In a small room, the reflections from the walls will probably cover the room. In larger rooms, this may not work as well.
Have I answered your question?
ST
This is a great answer ST - thanks so much. I wasn't aware of the differing degree to which the L1 (I have an old original model) and the F1s fill the room front to back. I'm familiar with the F1s from using them as a house PA in a concert venue run by a non-profit org here (of which I am a board member and where I often run sound) so I knew that the horizontal dispersement was different.
I guess my only remaining question, is how do the F1s compare to a conventional 2-way 15" and horn speaker as far as how they fill a room? We regularly play a couple of larger (could seat 300 or so in chairs, but usually tables and chairs for 120 or so), somewhat cavernous long rooms. Our usual PA is an old JBL passive speaker system, and I always bring my L1 as a sort of booster to the JBLs (used in FOH position), and it dramatically improves the penetration and clarity further back in the room. My sense (and hope) is that the L1s would give us that increased penetration and clarity without having to bring the L1. Even given the difference between the penetration of the F1 and L1, do you feel that that is accurate? Thanks again for the great input.
Hi, Don Richmond.
Don Richmond posted:This is a great answer ST - thanks so much.
You're welcome.
That's very difficult to answer. Older two-way systems might have a narrower horizontal dispersion (90 degrees was common), and a fixed vertical dispersion. The F1 Model 812 has four different vertical dispersion patterns.I wasn't aware of the differing degree to which the L1 (I have an old original model) and the F1s fill the room front to back. I'm familiar with the F1s from using them as a house PA in a concert venue run by a non-profit org here (of which I am a board member and where I often run sound) so I knew that the horizontal dispersement was different.
I guess my only remaining question, is how do the F1s compare to a conventional 2-way 15" and horn speaker as far as how they fill a room?
You haven't said (and may not know) the Sound Pressure Level you get from the conventional 2-way 15" and horn speaker.
The F1 Model 812 will give you 132 dB SPL (peak). That should compare favorably with many systems of similar size and power rating.
The F1 Model 812 is voiced differently than many other two-way horn with woofer loudspeakers. This is because it uses the eight-driver flexible array instead of a horn/tweeter. The F1 Model 812 crossover is at 600 Hz for increased vocal clarity.
We regularly play a couple of larger (could seat 300 or so in chairs, but usually tables and chairs for 120 or so), somewhat cavernous long rooms. Our usual PA is an old JBL passive speaker system, and I always bring my L1 as a sort of booster to the JBLs (used in FOH position), and it dramatically improves the penetration and clarity further back in the room.
My sense (and hope) is that the L1s would give us that increased penetration and clarity without having to bring the L1.
Did you mean "the F1s would give us that increased penetration and clarity without having to bring the L1. "
The F1 Model 812 systems are louder than your L1.
- F1 Model 812 132 db SPL
- L1 Classic approximately 118 db SPL
This will be most noticeable when you are close to the stage, but as you go farther out into the room, the difference is less apparent.
As you have discovered, with your JBL passive system, the L1 volume drops off less over distance than typical point source systems.
Even given the difference between the penetration of the F1 and L1, do you feel that that is accurate? Thanks again for the great input.
General ideas.
By the time you get to the back of a long room, the L1 may be heard better than other systems. Depending on the distance from the front to the back of the room, the L1 may still be a better choice than the F1 Model 812.
The F1 Model 812 does a great job motivating people to dance on a dance floor in front of the stage. It probably does this better than the L1. However, the array in the F1 Model 812 is shorter, so it drops off in volume faster than the L1.
If you are looking for more even sound coverage from the front to the back of a long room, the L1 will serve you better than the F1 Model 812s.
What are the dimensions of the cavernous long rooms? What kind of music are you playing in your trio?
Are you near an Bose dealer where you can hear an F1 Model 812?
ST
Thanks again ST, for your detailed answer. And yes, I did mean "the F1s would give us that increased penetration and clarity without having to bring the L1. " Sorry to confuse the issue more!
I have definitely heard the F1s (running sound in the 180 seat concert venue I mentioned) and also at another listening room in a neighboring town, and I have played on them in both of those venues, where they are the house systems. The thing I haven't done is haul them around with the band to some of these other rooms, and experience how they work in those rooms.
We played one of the rooms Friday night. I'm guessing it's about 150' deep and 50' wide, with about 30' ceilings. There's also a balcony. It's a beautiful old adobe dance hall called Old Martina's Hall, in Ranchos de Taos, NM http://oldmartinashall.com/hall
I love the general sound of the speakers. We are a electrified acoustic trio (the Rifters, www.rifters.net), playing what we call southwest Americana, using various stringed instruments with pickups and an electric bass, with a lot of vocals. I live in southern Colorado, but the band is based in northern New Mexico, where there is a strong dance community, so we do often play for dances.
As a comparison, I also own a pair of QSC K-12s, and I have always been disappointed at the sort of mid-heavy sound they have. I can get them sounding okay with the graphic, but I love the immediate airiness and clarity I hear in the Bose F1s, as well as the L1s. But I think with our acoustic instrumentation and strong emphasis on vocals, that the F1s will suit us well.
I think we'll just get them and give it a shot. I certainly feel like it will be a significant upgrade. I can't afford to get 2 L1s to use for FOH, although I imagine that would work. And I don't think we could get L1s loud enough using them behind us, or even beside us, and the stage is elevated about 4 feet, which could be problematic.
Thanks so much for your time and attention, and all best wishes!
Hi Don,
Don Richmond posted:Thanks again ST, for your detailed answer. And yes, I did mean "the F1s would give us that increased penetration and clarity without having to bring the L1. " Sorry to confuse the issue more!
I have definitely heard the F1s (running sound in the 180 seat concert venue I mentioned) and also at another listening room in a neighboring town, and I have played on them in both of those venues, where they are the house systems. The thing I haven't done is haul them around with the band to some of these other rooms, and experience how they work in those rooms.
I'm sorry, I forgot you've already had experience with the F1 Model 812s.
We played one of the rooms Friday night. I'm guessing it's about 150' deep and 50' wide, with about 30' ceilings. There's also a balcony. It's a beautiful old adobe dance hall called Old Martina's Hall, in Ranchos de Taos, NM http://oldmartinashall.com/hall
That looks like a fun place to play. It looks like the listeners' ears would be within the vertical projection area of the L1, but you might have better luck reaching the balcony with the F1 Model 812 systems with the flexible array in the reverse-J position.
I love the general sound of the speakers. We are a electrified acoustic trio (the Rifters, www.rifters.net), playing what we call southwest Americana, using various stringed instruments with pickups and an electric bass, with a lot of vocals. I live in southern Colorado, but the band is based in northern New Mexico, where there is a strong dance community, so we do often play for dances.
Thanks for the link Don. I found your videos and spent some time enjoying your music,
https://www.rifters.net/location
As a comparison, I also own a pair of QSC K-12s, and I have always been disappointed at the sort of mid-heavy sound they have. I can get them sounding okay with the graphic, but I love the immediate airiness and clarity I hear in the Bose F1s, as well as the L1s. But I think with our acoustic instrumentation and strong emphasis on vocals, that the F1s will suit us well.
Please come back and tell us how the F1 Model 812 systems work for you.
I think we'll just get them and give it a shot. I certainly feel like it will be a significant upgrade. I can't afford to get 2 L1s to use for FOH,
I understand about the budget.
although I imagine that would work. And I don't think we could get L1s loud enough using them behind us, or even beside us,
Having watched your videos, I think the L1 systems placed beside you would work fine.
and the stage is elevated about 4 feet, which could be problematic.
The stage height might be a problem (with the L1) for people seated near the stage. If the listeners' ears are below the height of the stage floor (the bottom of the L1 array) then the mid-high frequencies may be muffled.
But after all that, the F1 Model 812 systems might be just what you need too.
Thanks so much for your time and attention, and all best wishes!
You're welcome. I'm looking forward to hearing how you like the F1 Model 812 systems.
ST
Went ahead and ordered the F1 812s - looking forward to trying them out in the room described above in a few weeks, as well as some others before then. Thanks again ST for the discussion!
Hi, Don Richmond,
Please stay in touch and let us know what you hear.
Cheers!
ST
I spent the day today with Don in the studio (Hi, Don!) and we talked about this some more (even played with an S1 Pro a bit). I’m convinced this will work well for Don, and his trio could use them behind the group in a quiet house concert venue. Now we just need to get him some great monitors to round out the system in bigger venues!
S1 = great monitor
O..